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| wertigon |
Posted on 18-11-29, 08:43
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Post: #4 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by james4591 HW Compat - in the consumer space, yes. BUT. A lot of stuff already have support day 1, like new mice and keyboards, because Linux has a well defined standard interface for USB devices. When it comes to enterprise and server market, it's not even a contest, and some servers out there does not even have support of any kind in Windows (Like RISC-V, PPC and ARM servers). Also let's not forget the Raspberry Pi is good enough for a decent lightweight desktop machine these days. For bleeding edge consumer HW, Windows has an edge still. For everything else... No. Games - Does it matter if you don't have ALL the games, if the ones you have are of enough quality to keep you happy for a very long time? Linux has enough Triple-A and Indie-quality games natively to let you play for years, at this point, with most new games getting a native Linux release. Valves Wine layer may change that, but for now, well... |
| RetroJim |
Posted on 18-11-29, 14:24
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 Post: #10 of 26 Since: 11-15-18 Last post: 2071 days Last view: 2071 days |
Posted by wertigon Mice and Keyboards are usually under general HID device protocols, so respectively any new keyboard or mouse with similar functions to previous generation models will automatically have support which is fickle at best in terms of a wow-factor. ARM, RISC, and PPC servers are often under specialty vendors who have pre-built systems for them. Example: Oracle's SPARC servers traditionally have come with Solaris. This argument is a bit negligible because these aren't x86 based servers in high proliferation, though efforts to port Windows NT4 in the past were made, the proliferation of those markets was considered very low in marketshare compared to standard x86 based servers, and efforts to port NT5(2000) were subsequently scrapped. Windows 10 does offer a special IoT version to the market around ARM based Pi systems. I have no idea how useful it is nor how it works though. Though not ultimately successful, Windows Mobile and RT were available on some ARM based devices like smartphones and tablet PCs as well. I had a Lumia 640 LTE and for a smartphone it was actually more reliable than my LineageOS 14.1 powered Zenfone 2e ever has been, crashed apps far less, and had very little problems with performance unless the apps were outside the recommended hardware requirements for higher end devices. My Zenfone 2e tends to crash Google Play Services several times a day due to problems with resources and resource management that just aren't solved nor ever seem to be. As far as games go, yes the availability of many titles is nice and has brought a lot of good quality games to Linux and even FreeBSD, but the MMO market is still the linchpin needed to get GNU/Linux into higher availability. Without the Ring 0 support, even if only emulated through a psuedo-kernelspace in Wine, it still doesn't mean much to switch to GNU/Linux or even FreeBSD. Many of these MMOs are Free-to-Play games. Free-to-Play games on a Free-to-Use OS, is the holy grail of win-win situations. You get those, you get the marketshares to GNU/Linux. Trust me, even I would love to one day see this headline "Wine adds emulated psuedo-kernelspace allowing Ring-0 anti-cheat software to work under GNU/Linux and FreeBSD" and ditch this horrible nightmare OS myself. Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming |
| tomman |
Posted on 18-11-29, 18:58
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Dinosaur
 Post: #53 of 1316 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 2 hours Last view: 2 hours |
Hardware compatibility is a double-edged sword even under Windows. If you buy the latest new tech, or consumer-geared stuff like cellphones, chances are you're going to get Windows compatibility only, and that's all. Good luck sync'ing a Windows Phone to your Linux box, or using the video recording capabilities of your fancy new camera (because expensive cameras often require a proprietary driver instead of sticking to UVC drivers, and nobody is going to RE a driver for a camera that costs $2K). If you're buying a GPU, you will usually be fine, but for anything else... sometimes it's Windows or nada. But if you want to stick to your hardware beyond the cold death of the universe and are lucky to get Linux-compatible hardware, well, Linux is the way to go. Good luck running modern Windows versions on old Radeon cards: while on Linux you get limited support, you at least get an accelerated 2D desktop and some support for the 3D bits on Mesa. On Windows 7/8/10? Hope you enjoy VESA, because that's all you going to get with your ancient GPU. Linux is the only OS willing to deal with my old BenQ S2W 3300U scanner that won't work with anything beyond 32-bit Vista (and even there it's still dicey), unless if I pay for some $100 shareware that supposedly works as a "universal driver" (I REFUSE to pay for device drivers of any kind - it's like paying for being able to walk or breath!) Licensed Pirate® since 2006, 100% Buttcoin™-free, enemy of All Things JavaScript™ |
| wertigon |
Posted on 18-11-30, 22:23
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Post: #5 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by james4591 Yes, but a lot of "hardware support" is already there. Take gamer mice, many Windows users say there are no drivers - but they are there and with even greater control than the Windows tools. Same thing for many other devices. It's not *perfect* of course, but the pool with unsupported Linux hardware is happily shrinking. I recommend everyone interested to take a look at this website for the majority list of reasons why Linux is not quite ready yet: https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html Posted by james4591 The reason you want to run Windows or any other platform is because you want to run programs written for that platform. The closed source nature of Windows is also what makes Windows impossible to port to other architectures. You must be able to run your apps and programs on your ARM laptop, and well... There's a metric shitton of binary-only programs out there, written specifically for Win32 / Wintel platforms. Linux does not have that problem, because Linux and it's distributions are mostly Open-Source, so if it has a gcc-compatible architecture (pretty much all of them), Linux can be made to run on that architecture. Since the Windows death grip is loosening, so is the restriction to stick to x86 as your daily PC. Even though there's still a lot to love about the x86 infrastructure, a $50 computer frankly holds a lot more love. Windows will (un)fortunately be left behind. Posted by james4591 MMORPGs? Sorry, but they are slowly waning. I know WoW has been working with wine on and off since forever, but the most popular games these days are MOBAs. And here, Dota 2 is available as is HoN. LoL and Smite are missing though, as well as Fortnite, but the situation is slowly changing. So while your particular poison might not be available, similar decent games exist. It's like owning a Sega Genesis and being in love with RPGs - most good ones are on the SNES but some good ones also exist for my system, and if RPGs aren't your main reason for sticking to a certain console, then the Genesis may well be the superior choice. |
| wareya |
Posted on 18-12-01, 01:23
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 Post: #14 of 100 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 1782 days Last view: 1347 days |
WoW might be dying but FF14 is a serious thing. |
| RetroJim |
Posted on 18-12-01, 08:05
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Post: #15 of 26 Since: 11-15-18 Last post: 2071 days Last view: 2071 days |
WoW has been dying a slow and painful death since Cataclysm. What else is new? No, there are plenty of other good MMOs out there that could benefit from Ring 0 support, even if emulated. Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming |
| CaptainJistuce |
Posted on 18-12-01, 08:29
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Custom title here
 Post: #96 of 1164 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 63 days Last view: 14 hours |
You guys missed the point. Online RPGs can't be played on Linux, and therefore they must not be something anyone would want to do. To say otherwise is to imply that Linux isn't actually a viable OS for everybody, which is clearly not true. It is the same reason we're seeing the argument that Linux has better hardware support than Windows. It MUST be true, because to be false would mean that Linux is inferior to Windows in some way, and Linux is objectively superior in every regard. Geez, it is like you two don't even know how to compare operating systems. Some would call this "lying", but the true connoisseur knows it is actually about presenting facts because facts will always support the platform you prefer even if they aren't true facts. --- In UTF-16, where available. --- |
| wertigon |
Posted on 18-12-01, 09:58 (revision 2)
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Post: #6 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by CaptainJistuce Except for native titles such as Second Life, Tibia, Champions of Regnum, Saga of Ryzom, Wurm Online, Salem: The Crafting MMO, Eternal Lands, Stendhal Online. Many also work with Wine, take a look at https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=category&iId=103&sAction=view&sTitle=Browse+Applications To say Online RPGs cannot be played on Linux is simply a false statement. Now, your particular brand may not be available, Wine or no wine. But that's like saying a bar doesn't serve Alcohol because it serves whiskey, but not bourbon. Posted by CaptainJistuce Objectively - it does. I can run (pretty much) the entire Debian distribution on 14 different architectures and counting, for instance. Windows simply cannot compete with that. But yes, of course there are blind spots, the consumer space is still a bit problematic and what's better for me and my use case is not necessarily better for you and your use case. But it might, and you never know until you try. |
| CaptainJistuce |
Posted on 18-12-01, 10:33
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Custom title here
Post: #98 of 1164 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 63 days Last view: 14 hours |
I've tried. My experience with Linux is... not great. It is pretty awful, actually. My experience with FreeBSD is a lot better, but... it still doesn't do what I need it to do(play games). Also, Wine's compatibility list there is COMPLETELY unreliable. It is "crowd-sourced", and a lot of people are looking to add missing entries, not test comprehensively, so you can find "runs perfect" applied to games that display the various copyright screens and logo movies, then crash violently the instant you click "new game". Having seen a few of those in the past, and others that haven't been updated in YEARS, I have zero faith in that list. --- In UTF-16, where available. --- |
| Covarr |
Posted on 18-12-01, 16:29
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 Post: #28 of 63 Since: 10-29-18 Last post: 1365 days Last view: 643 days |
Right now it seems Valve is doing more to bring gamers to Linux than the Linux community is. The work they've done with Steam, Dxvk, and Wine, both in improving compatibility and in automating the setup process (You install a Proton-supported game in Steam like you would install a native game in Steam, with the extra step of toggling a switch if you want to try your luck with unsupported games), is just what the gaming community needed. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see other companies copy this approach for cheaper/easier Linux compatibility on their apps than actually porting it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Screw_Yall |
| wertigon |
Posted on 18-12-01, 16:48
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Post: #9 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by CaptainJistuce Sometimes, a tool is not meant to be used by everyone. No shame if you're stuck in Windows 10. Linux can be your cup-o-tea - but most people doing linux have games as a side thing, not their primary reason to use a computer. Which is fine. All I ask is, try it with an open mind. It could work for you, or it would be too much work to switch over. TLG on Linux recently made a Youtube video about the horrors of Linux Video Editing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hksW66jw1jA So there are legit reasons to run Windows 10, but I'm confident these reasons will slowly disappear as time moves on. |
| RetroJim |
Posted on 18-12-03, 17:35
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Post: #19 of 26 Since: 11-15-18 Last post: 2071 days Last view: 2071 days |
Posted by wertigon The problems of publishers refusing to target GNU/Linux or even broad based UNIX support is never going to end until one key problem ends within UNIX as a whole. The infighting between developers, projects, and distribution maintainers. It's hard to target a system for uniform distribution when things are unstable, in disarray, there's descension within the ranks, or there's the fact of too many choices. Plus, which distribution do you target? Red Hat for professional support? Ubuntu for possible users? Slackware for stability? Who has the best driver support systems? Will OEM drivers be favored over FOSS drivers? Will we need to worry about systemd and any other software for whatever reason? The fact is GNU/Linux is a mess. It's an organized mess, but a mess is still a mess regardless of how well you can push the pile around. FreeBSD has the problem of ports that can break ruining an entire setup. It's not a bad a mess, but it's just not as clean as Windows, which is why this overgrown Tentacle Monster still can grab ahold of PCs and developers more easily. Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming |
| wertigon |
Posted on 18-12-04, 21:22
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Post: #10 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by james4591 Might as well ask all countries in the world to stop their stupid wars. Ain't gonna happen, and I also disagree that consensus is necessary - Publishers are free to support RedHat or Ubuntu, or both. Supporting anything else is pretty much not necessary. Likewise, GTK is the mainstream Linux GUI framework these days, with QT slowly losing ground. Chances of a QT comeback is increasingly unlikely, but hey, could happen. These days, containers exist if you must keep your source code secret, which pretty much keeps your ELF executable for infinity. With all the good and bad stuff that involves. Posted by james4591 But of course it is. But so is every other OS, too. Ever looked in your "installed apps" on that "clean" windows machine you have? Why do you need six different versions of Direct X installed? You call that clean? Not to mention all programs are containerized in Windows, too. Now, if it weren't for systemd being a magnificently beautiful marvel of glass foundation ready to be shattered at your earliest convenience, and the same thing goes with Pulseaudio, things would look rather nice. But nooooooo. |
| tomman |
Posted on 18-12-05, 12:04
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Dinosaur
Post: #61 of 1316 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 2 hours Last view: 2 hours |
Might as well ask all countries in the world to stop their stupid wars. Ain't gonna happen, and I also disagree that consensus is necessary - Publishers are free to support RedHat or Ubuntu, or both. Supporting anything else is pretty much not necessary. Choice is good. Excess of choice is not. But hey, Linux is made by nerds for nerds, and the last thing nerds want is uniformity, because that infringes their human rights or something. Let's make things as incompatible as possible because who cares about proprietary software? We must get ALL THE SOURCECODEZZZZ!!!! Ugh. And no, containers are not exactly the best solution. Sure, it's the easy way out, and for very specialized applications it's the only reasonable solution. But for general purpose software? Fuck that shit, yo. Recently I downloaded a "containerized" Avidemux. Surprise, it crashed on a fully up to date Debian Stable! I had no option but to build my own .debs from source. At least Valve tries to find a middle ground with their Steam Runtime solution, so you have to target THAT instead of over 9000 distros made by all kinds of people, from conservative enterprisey to deranged nerds. Too bad the Steam Runtime can't do nothing with regards to core stuff like Mesa :/ Windows is also a mess, but at least there is only ONE distribution of Windows, made by a single entity, upgraded in a somewhat predictable fashion. Or at least it was until Microsoft got infected by the phoneworms and tried to embrace an "it compiles, ship it!" mindset. Also last time I checked, there was no entry for DirectX on Add/Remove programs, and I'm running the latest redistributables available for my platform. > systemd Let's not go there, PLEASE. ... Anyway, back to topic. Apparently Edge is doomed, nobody wants to use it, and Microsoft is well aware of this. Their solution? Yet Another Chromium Fork™, of course! https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/12/04/043213/microsoft-is-building-a-chromium-powered-web-browser-that-will-replace-edge-on-windows-10-report It's official, the Trident monoculture is dead. All hail your new Browser Engine Fuhrer, Blink/Webkit! Ugh, with Mozilla neverending quest to fade into irrelevance and Microsoft throwing the towel with Trident, the future for web browsers is beyond terrible now that all involved actors have effectively given total control to Google as the one and only entity in charge of web technologies. This is a very sad day for the Internet. MS, you're still in time to opensource EdgeHTML, let people port it to earlier Windows versions and non-Windows platforms. Or maybe not, nobody would even want to touch it because "ewwww IE". In the meanwhile, MS is working on yet another Windows version, this time targetting https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/12/04/194256/microsoft-is-working-on-a-new-iteration-of-windows-to-take-on-chromeos-report-says ...why?! And to keep with the pointless fads, apparently "modern drivers" are now a thing in MS-speak: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/11/30/1511226/intel-publishes-its-first-modern-windows-driver-for-pcs https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/develop/getting-started-with-universal-drivers But what the hell is a modern driver!? A Universal Windows driver package contains an INF file and binaries that install and run on Universal Windows Platform (UWP) based editions of Windows 10 as well as other Windows 10 editions that share a common set of interfaces. ...well, more of the same (you still have .INF scripts that tell Windows what files to copy and what registry keys to write according to what specific piece of hardware you're installing), with a bit of "modularity" sprinkled in, and of course with UWP junk in mind (because you can't run ol' fashioned Win32-based installers on those special devices), and for whatever reason, the Windows Store is where you would look for device drivers. And of course, Windows Insiders will get to experience the joy of early betatesting of broken drivers, rather than dedicated QA staff which no longer works at MS. ...once again, fuck this shit :/ Licensed Pirate® since 2006, 100% Buttcoin™-free, enemy of All Things JavaScript™ |
| wertigon |
Posted on 18-12-05, 21:43 (revision 1)
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Post: #11 of 205
Since: 11-24-18 Last post: 156 days Last view: 27 days |
Posted by tomman Before I begin, I think we're on the same page here. What would be nice is standard interfaces so you can interchangeably use KDE, Gnome or WhateverTheFuckYouWant, but then some asshole will break those standards, unfortunately. Tried it, didn't pan out, time for new types of assholes. I have to repeat though, the abundance of choice is not a problem in and of itself, just look at the hardware market. If you can't be arsed about the details, hire someone to build it for you or get a pre-built system. I thought Ubuntu would be the one distro to rule them all - and for a while, it seemed to be the case. Red Hat was getting too entrenched in their niche and all development happened on Ubuntu. Then Ubuntu dropped the ball while Fedora/Red Hat picked up the slack, and now I'm not so sure anymore. Could be Ubuntu, could be Mint, could be Fedora that finally gets that widespread adoptation. Or some currently unknown dark horse, or perhaps even a Linux clone with a micro kernel or quantum computing OS. I do agree though, if Linux (or BSD) ever goes full mainstream, it will be a single vendor that will stand taller than the rest, it will be the obvious go-to choice, and it will be where the majority of newer development happens. Right now that is Fedora/Red Hat and to some lesser extent, Valve and Debian/Ubuntu, but the market is still small enough that everything can change if someone does a Shuttleworth and spend billions in order to make things not suck as much. One can always dream. Meanwhile I'm perfectly happy with my Ubuntu emacs/i3wm abomination of a frankenmonster setup I've got going right now, but to each their own. Posted by tomman Hmm, Firefox finally runs each tab as a single process at least. I'm back at FF now and it feels better, still weaning myself off Chromium though, and some pages (for instance, Netflix) simply refuse to work. Also, let me add Presto to the list of dead browser engines worth mourning. Opera was one of the best browsers around in the mid 2000s... Posted by tomman Like I said before; all versions of Windows which does not let you run Win32 apps are doomed to fail. For better or worse. As for why, because Microsoft loves pissing away money, just look at the Nokia fiasco! Posted by tomman ... Ugh. So they basically invented a new driver model having all of the same problems as the previous model, while adding a couple more issues? Or am I missing something? Microsoft at their finest, for sure! |
| Kawaoneechan |
Posted on 18-12-05, 22:11
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Secretly, I'm William Shatner
 Post: #98 of 599 Since: 10-29-18 Last post: 196 days Last view: 9 hours |
Posted by wertigonAnd people wonder why I'm so slow to update my systems. |
| RetroJim |
Posted on 18-12-06, 00:27
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Post: #21 of 26 Since: 11-15-18 Last post: 2071 days Last view: 2071 days |
The last company you want as a leader in GNU/Linux is Red Hat. Literally, they are the Microsoft of GNU/Linux. Ubuntu is no better. The original purpose of GNU/Linux was to be a free and open UNIX-like replacement system to UNIX which was expensive and closed off, but when you have CoreOS trying to be the one stop shop of a building block OS, it's trying to be less and less UNIX-like and more and more Microsoft Windows-like especially when they pretty much tied so much of Gnome into requiring systemd aiming to be the equivalent of Sauron's One Ring, you get the picture. The systemd team already attempted to hijack the kernel using kdbus and failed miserably thanks to Torvalds putting his foot down. One of the few truly UNIX-like Linux systems still around is Slackware, and how they keep doing it is amazing considering the climate in the Linux world. Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming |
| tomman |
Posted on 18-12-06, 00:49
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Dinosaur
Post: #62 of 1316 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 2 hours Last view: 2 hours |
I don't use Linux because it's UNIX-like (in fact I didn't even knew what the hell was "UNIX" the first time I heard about Linux, almost 20 years ago, and certainly my opinion hasn't changed that much since then now that I'm aware of the meaning of UNIX and the existence of other derivatives like Licensed Pirate® since 2006, 100% Buttcoin™-free, enemy of All Things JavaScript™ |
| CaptainJistuce |
Posted on 18-12-06, 05:38
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Custom title here
Post: #104 of 1164 Since: 10-30-18 Last post: 63 days Last view: 14 hours |
Posted by wertigonIt is a new way to distribute drivers. Basically, they want to enforce the use of signed drivers, and they want people to be able to get the latest drivers for everything from one place instead of seventy individual websites. I'd say there's probably a quality-control angle there too, but MS doesn't seem to have much of that lately. --- In UTF-16, where available. --- |
| TheMTtakeover |
Posted on 18-12-06, 05:55 (revision 2)
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 Post: #3 of 9 Since: 12-06-18 Last post: 2175 days Last view: 2142 days |
Posted by james4591 Red Hat and Canonical have both done A LOT to help improve Linux.They provide great distrbustions and everything they do is open-source. Why would you not want either of them to be the leader in Linux (ignorning the IBM ordeal)? GPL basically prevents them from doing a bunch of fuck shit. ... Where am I? Posted by tomman |
