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Posted on 19-10-27, 05:09 (revision 2)
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Posted by BearOso
The mingw libraries are probably statically linked with the mingw runtimes, whereas the msvc libraries can assume the runtimes are going to be there and dynamically link them. The debug libs are including all the statically linked debug symbols, too, so they’re huge.

In mingw, Qt5Guid.dll (Qt5, Gui, debug) is 288 MiB, which is horrendous. 254 megabytes is EXE resource 19, which contains a pile of symbol names. If I open a msys2 mingw64 terminal and run "strip Qt5Guid.dll", the size drops to 5.77 MiB. Trying to extract the resulting DLL with 7-Zip produces data errors. Is strip broken?

Are MinGW-style debug symbols really *this* inefficient and bloated?
Posted on 19-10-27, 06:02
Full mod

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What would extracting a DLL with 7-zip do? Generally "strip" removes everything but the actual executable code, and things the executable code directly needs; it's pretty common for strip to break things if your executable has some kind of metadata section or extra resources.

I don't know about DWARF debug symbols specifically, but if you consider that it has to represent the filename and line number of every single instruction, plus the layout and field names of every struct and every stack frame, the names and values of every enum, and probably multiple copies of all of those things once C++ templates get involved... it's pretty reasonable for debug symbols to be a hefty multiple of the size of the executable size.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Posted on 19-10-27, 07:17
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Posted by Screwtape
I don't know about DWARF debug symbols specifically, but if you consider that it has to represent the filename and line number of every single instruction, plus the layout and field names of every struct and every stack frame, the names and values of every enum, and probably multiple copies of all of those things once C++ templates get involved... it's pretty reasonable for debug symbols to be a hefty multiple of the size of the executable size.

https://stackoverflow.com/a/49698301/2683842
As of Qt 5.9, the PDBs corresponding to the Windows distros are available as a separate .zip file for download from this archive: https://download.qt.io/archive/qt/

I guess "eat 5 gigabytes of your hard drive for debug DLL symbols" is opt-in for Qt MSVC, and mandatory for Qt MinGW.
Posted on 19-10-27, 07:54
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Posted by Nicholas Steel
Did you have a look at your TV's Service Menu? There may be an obvious setting in there to remedy the issue with HDMI.
Not actually a lot to mess with in there.
It'd somehow be LESS annoying if the TV just straight-up didn't support full color resolution. That it DOES, but I can't enable it on HDMI, is infuriating.

VGA dongle is working nicely, except for a minor niggling issue. I'm now using motherboard sound instead of the multimedia card's HDMI audio. Which is fine, except that it apparently isn't isolated well. I fire up a game and put a load on the 3D accelerator and suddenly my speakers are mostly just making squealing noises(kinda nostalgic, really, our first 486 did this during disk access).


I've got plans to solve THIS issue as well. I do have an actual PCI-Express sound card I can install. 'S just annoying, is all. But at least it isn't a whole new world of WTFery. This is a problem as old as electronic sound.
(nVidia had a solution for this back when they weren't raging assholes. nForce motherboards had a licensing program, and to activate onboard audio for the optional "SoundStorm" configuration, you had to have a quality sound output implementation, verified by outside testing. Intent: motherboard audio meets high quality standards and people can trust it. Effect: motherboards are more expensive, so no one buys SoundStorm boards.)

--- In UTF-16, where available. ---
Posted on 19-10-27, 11:50
Stirrer of Shit
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An interesting exercise could be if your 250 MB DLLs compress well. If so, it ought to be trivial; just enable the NTFS file-system level transparent compression. I can't imagine those DLL files have any need for high-performance access anyway.

You really should not be using Visual Studio anyway. It is an atrocious piece of software made for a certain clientele, to which I am fairly certain no members of this board belong. Perhaps we have some unfortunate school-age kids or such who are forced to use it though.

It is vulgar and in poor taste, it's as if anyone above legal drinking age were to drink premix drinks. If you want a better IDE there are many good choices, if you want a better debugger there are many good choices.

Posted by tomman
Related: why in the hell TeX and friends involve installing gigabytes of junk just to build some random package documentation files from source? This is why I'm not building my own VirtualBox .debs from source.


Does it? I seem to recall installing LaTeX and it didn't take more than a few megabytes. As I recall it, there is a package with "everything but the kitchen sink," but there is also a package that just has the required parts. I think that would be "texlive-latex-base," as opposed to "texlive-latex-recommended". You do however need to install some language packs (in my case texlive-lang-greek, for the symbols, and texlive-lang-european, for special characters and hyphenation), but it's still quite lean.

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-10-27, 12:04
Secretly, I'm Derpy Hooves

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Posted by sureanem
You really should not be using Visual Studio anyway. It is an atrocious piece of software made for a certain clientele, to which I am fairly certain no members of this board belong. Perhaps we have some unfortunate school-age kids or such who are forced to use it though.
I feel personally attacked.

That is not a joke.
Posted on 19-10-27, 12:07
Custom title here

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Posted by sureanem

You really should not be using Visual Studio anyway. It is an atrocious piece of software made for a certain clientele, to which I am fairly certain no members of this board belong. Perhaps we have some unfortunate school-age kids or such who are forced to use it though.

It is vulgar and in poor taste, it's as if anyone above legal drinking age were to drink premix drinks. If you want a better IDE there are many good choices, if you want a better debugger there are many good choices.

Says the guy using VIM for his counterexample.
I mean, it isn't EMACS or EDLIN, but that's all I can say for it.

--- In UTF-16, where available. ---
Posted on 19-10-27, 13:57 (revision 1)
Stirrer of Shit
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Posted by Kawa
I feel personally attacked.

That is not a joke.

I am sorry, I did not mean it that way. To be perfectly clear here, you do not form a member of that clientele – I am talking about the people who pay good money to take an "online course" in Java and then proceed to use their newfound "skills" on fiverr. Although I must say, I am surprised that you would use VS Studio.

If you're making C# applications, I concede that it is more or less your only option, but that's my point entirely - C# is simply not suitable for serious applications, being (in practice) limited to one platform and having lots of other unpleasant characteristics (needs runtime, atrocious performance, unpredictable). Its primary virtue is interfacing very well with the Windows GUI, and for education it's probably the least bad option for making GUI software. Not that newbies should be making GUI software or using IDEs or dynamic languages anyway; it impedes learning and teaches bad habits.

C# is a solution to the problem of "how do I quickly create a Windows and Windows-only GUI application," but this is generally not a problem you're supposed to have very often. Using it for other languages than C#, man what are you doing?

(I have no idea about C# for webapps which you used it for, although it does sound like setting yourself up for a world of pain. Personally I would just use PHP or C–both perfectly standard languages.)

It ought to be pointed out that the venerable Satoshi did use Visual C++, and he clearly knew what he was doing. Although maybe things were different back in 2007–who knows?
Posted by CaptainJistuce
Says the guy using VIM for his counterexample.
I mean, it isn't EMACS or EDLIN, but that's all I can say for it.

Vim is a nice piece of software if you know how to use it. It does have a bit of a learning curve though, I'll give you that. Newbies should start with notepad, and then be allowed to use Notepad++ after a few months, after that they could go on to vim as they please.

If you want an IDE, my personal recommendation is Pelles C.

EDIT: options -> option

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-10-27, 14:10
Custom title here

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Vim is antiquated garbage.
But good job masturbating some buttcoin praise into a topic it couldn't even be tangentally worked into.



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Posted on 19-10-27, 14:41 (revision 1)
Lotus Eater

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Posted by sureanem
C# is a solution to the problem of "how do I quickly create a Windows and Windows-only GUI application,"
Do you even Mono?

No, because you're too busy playing with fire.

Edit: okay I felt I ought to address your claims a little more before I lay the banhammer down. Atrocious performance? Bullshit. Windows-only? Absolute bullshit, and I should know. Unpredictable? Probably bullshit in that I can't recall any such issue.

Strike three, you're out.
Posted on 19-10-27, 16:55
Post: #104 of 144
Since: 11-01-18

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I wonder if he just used google suggestions to pad out his posts.
Posted on 19-10-27, 17:04 (revision 2)
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Posted by CaptainJistuce
Posted by Nicholas Steel
Did you have a look at your TV's Service Menu? There may be an obvious setting in there to remedy the issue with HDMI.
Not actually a lot to mess with in there.
It'd somehow be LESS annoying if the TV just straight-up didn't support full color resolution. That it DOES, but I can't enable it on HDMI, is infuriating.

VGA dongle is working nicely, except for a minor niggling issue. I'm now using motherboard sound instead of the multimedia card's HDMI audio. Which is fine, except that it apparently isn't isolated well. I fire up a game and put a load on the 3D accelerator and suddenly my speakers are mostly just making squealing noises(kinda nostalgic, really, our first 486 did this during disk access).


I've got plans to solve THIS issue as well. I do have an actual PCI-Express sound card I can install. 'S just annoying, is all. But at least it isn't a whole new world of WTFery. This is a problem as old as electronic sound.
(nVidia had a solution for this back when they weren't raging assholes. nForce motherboards had a licensing program, and to activate onboard audio for the optional "SoundStorm" configuration, you had to have a quality sound output implementation, verified by outside testing. Intent: motherboard audio meets high quality standards and people can trust it. Effect: motherboards are more expensive, so no one buys SoundStorm boards.)


Nvidia had the program because video cards are the #1 source of such interference, and AGP being stuck where it was. Since we got PCI-e slots, you can move the video card further from the io backplate and it should help.
Posted on 19-10-27, 17:18 (revision 1)
Oatmeal? Are you crazy?

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Posted by funkyass
I wonder if he just used google suggestions to pad out his posts.

More padding than Sakuya.

Okay, so one stupid thing he'd actually reminded me of involving compatibility is from one update to the next, MacOS messed up somehow and made the key repeat in Noxico go all weird. I took a very close look at how the game handled keyboard input (quite important for a roguelike don't ya think?) and I was pretty much stumped.

That day, six years ago, was when I gave up on MacOS support. That's right, I did it before it was cool 😎



You know what's nice about runtimes? Generally speaking, in my experience, you only need one installed per major version. I have a bunch of VC runtimes of various vintages, all shared by programs who don't need to carry all that around. Instead I have just the one VC2015 RT or whatever, and that's it. Every program made in VC2015 can and does use that, unless the creator explicitly chose to static-link. It's exactly the same with .Net... except where Unity is concerned. Much like Electron apps each having their own copy of Chromium, Unity games each have their own Mono runtime. Why is such a simple little game more than 30 MB, when most of its bloated mass could be shared with all these other much more intricate games? Because fuck you and fuck your drive space that's why.

As for the Electron thing I just mentioned, that reminds me. Imagine for a moment there's some real creep-ass vulnerability that's found in Chromium, that in turn affects the Chrome browser. Considering their market share, Google quickly figures it out, patches the vulnerability, and releases an update. Your browser is now safe (*scoff*) but... oh dear, you get owned through an interactive fiction interpreter instead.

(at least all these separate copies of SDL are fairly small...)
Posted on 19-10-27, 18:10

Post: #122 of 163
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Posted by CaptainJistuce
Not actually a lot to mess with in there.
It'd somehow be LESS annoying if the TV just straight-up didn't support full color resolution. That it DOES, but I can't enable it on HDMI, is infuriating.

Sometimes it has to be a specific HDMI port on the TV. It seems like you did your research, but maybe you didn't try that?

I'm familiar with the HDMI->DVI trick, and that's often used to trick a NVIDIA card into behaving properly and sending the correct signal. You could try using onboard video or an AMD card if you've got one, just to test. If you're already not on NVIDIA, that's why the HDMI->DVI dongle doesn't do anything.
Posted on 19-10-27, 19:43 (revision 1)
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Posted by Kawa
Strike three, you're out.


Is this an appropriate time to bust out that clip from The Critic?
Posted on 19-10-27, 20:46
Rainbow Dash

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It is never appropriate to post The Critic.
Posted on 19-10-28, 00:25 (revision 2)
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I wonder how much of the extra libraries are there because licenses.

*edit* duh, yeah its a licensing issue, virtually every game that uses unity comes with a mono runtime.

Posted by Kawa

Why is such a simple little game more than 30 MB, when most of its bloated mass could be shared with all these other much more intricate games? Because fuck you and fuck your drive space that's why.

As for the Electron thing I just mentioned, that reminds me. Imagine for a moment there's some real creep-ass vulnerability that's found in Chromium, that in turn affects the Chrome browser. Considering their market share, Google quickly figures it out, patches the vulnerability, and releases an update. Your browser is now safe (*scoff*) but... oh dear, you get owned through an interactive fiction interpreter instead.

(at least all these separate copies of SDL are fairly small...)
Posted on 19-10-28, 05:09
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Posted by funkyass

Nvidia had the program because video cards are the #1 source of such interference, and AGP being stuck where it was. Since we got PCI-e slots, you can move the video card further from the io backplate and it should help.

Well, that too.
But onboard audio was very ill-regarded in general at the time. There were people who didn't care as long as beeps and boops came out without too much hiss, and people who actively looked for boards with no onboard audio because they didn't want to waste the money and space on garbage audio jacks they weren't gonna use. There wasn't really a middle ground.
...
I think nVidia also expected 3D audio acceleration to be the next big thing, and were trying to get in on the ground floor without having to directly oppose Creative Labs the way Aureal had.

Posted by BearOso

Sometimes it has to be a specific HDMI port on the TV. It seems like you did your research, but maybe you didn't try that?

I'm familiar with the HDMI->DVI trick, and that's often used to trick a NVIDIA card into behaving properly and sending the correct signal. You could try using onboard video or an AMD card if you've got one, just to test. If you're already not on NVIDIA, that's why the HDMI->DVI dongle doesn't do anything.

I'm using an AMD card. I'd seen reports of it helping in some cases, but most of the tests and results are years out of date(the display is an LG 32LD450 television, from way back in 2010). And folks trying to sort it out back then were finding a lot of solutions that worked sometimes, or worked for one person and not another. The VGA port was the only thing that consistently behaved right. (Maybe component ports too, I'm not sure.)

--- In UTF-16, where available. ---
Posted on 19-10-28, 20:57 (revision 1)

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Posted by CaptainJistuce

I'm using an AMD card. I'd seen reports of it helping in some cases, but most of the tests and results are years out of date(the display is an LG 32LD450 television, from way back in 2010). And folks trying to sort it out back then were finding a lot of solutions that worked sometimes, or worked for one person and not another. The VGA port was the only thing that consistently behaved right. (Maybe component ports too, I'm not sure.)

Coincidentally, I've got an old 42LD450, and 4:4:4 only works on HDMI 1, and the input label needs to be set to PC (changing it also makes the sharpness control work differently).
Posted on 19-10-29, 03:09 (revision 2)
Custom title here

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Posted by BearOso
Posted by CaptainJistuce

I'm using an AMD card. I'd seen reports of it helping in some cases, but most of the tests and results are years out of date(the display is an LG 32LD450 television, from way back in 2010). And folks trying to sort it out back then were finding a lot of solutions that worked sometimes, or worked for one person and not another. The VGA port was the only thing that consistently behaved right. (Maybe component ports too, I'm not sure.)

Coincidentally, I've got an old 42LD450, and 4:4:4 only works on HDMI 1, and the input label needs to be set to PC (changing it also makes the sharpness control work differently).

HDMI1 set as PC... Yes, that is how it was configured. Some people did report them working that way. I was not one of the lucky ones(though I did get one with the "good" display panel).

I'm curious if it isn't variations in the display's software. Flash a new ROM and it starts/stops doing what we want.
Mine says "Software version 03.05.20", which seems to be the last update they made available.

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