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Posted on 18-11-11, 06:21
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Posted by BearOso
Posted by Screwtape
I guess I'm more worried about the progressives shooting themselves in the foot than about people embracing our current conservative leader.

That's basically how Trump got elected. The democrats shot themselves in the foot by forcing an unlikable female candidate because they thought they had the election tied up. Then, democrats turned out in the lowest number in years because of that same assumption.

Yeah, the democratic party assumed the people that voted for Obama were party-loyal voters and would turn up in droves for ANYONE. When they were actually voting for Obama and not "the democrat candidate for president".



You mean he gives the dirtiest parts of society, what Hillary called "the deplorables," the courage and confirmation that it's OK to express hatred and bigotry towards others.

But most of the people who vote republican are in rural areas and have no idea who their candidates are or what they actually do. They just vote the same party because of inertia, and they never pay attention to the news to know what's going on in Washington, and assume the politicians are actually following through on the lies they told. The Republican party of today is not the party of yesterday, but these people don't know it.

Pot, meet kettle.


It isn't that the folks in rural areas are ignorant rednecks completely unaware of world events. That is kind of bigoted to just dismiss their opinions as the result of being ill-informed.

They very much know that the republican party of today is not the party it used to be. That's why the south started voting republican in the first place. When the democrats talk about the days when the south was a democrat stronghold, they forget that was a time when the democrats were the conservative party and the republicans were the liberal party. And when things started shifting, the southern democrats were left in the lurch. For a while they got on being basically their own party: they had the financial backing of the national democratic party, but were almost completely unaligned with the national party's platform.

The actual fact of the matter is that rural citizens have different needs and concerns than urban ones, and they are issues that the democrats are either not addressing or directly opposing. And THAT is why rural areas tend to vote republican, not because they have no idea what is going on in the world.

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Posted on 18-11-12, 00:20

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Posted by CaptainJistuce

It isn't that the folks in rural areas are ignorant rednecks completely unaware of world events. That is kind of bigoted to just dismiss their opinions as the result of being ill-informed.

I didn't say ignorant, I said apathetic. They're people who wouldn't spend leisure time following politics and don't give a crap about who's running, and honestly I wish I were like that. Those who vote that way because they want to be little weasels in big bully Trump's gang are ignorant. (or assholes)

The actual fact of the matter is that rural citizens have different needs and concerns than urban ones, and they are issues that the democrats are either not addressing or directly opposing. And THAT is why rural areas tend to vote republican, not because they have no idea what is going on in the world.

That's what I meant by inertia. They're voting Republican because their needs were met by that party in the past. But that party is gradually weeding out anything that isn't big business. The party of Trump is not the party of McCain, which isn't the party of Reagan, and so on.
Posted on 18-11-12, 01:08
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Posted by BearOso

That's what I meant by inertia. They're voting Republican because their needs were met by that party in the past. But that party is gradually weeding out anything that isn't big business. The party of Trump is not the party of McCain, which isn't the party of Reagan, and so on.
Their needs aren't met by the democrats either. Who are, well, ALSO focused mostly on big business.

The bones both parties throw to the little guys are different, and that's where the distinctions come up. If you live in the middle of nowhere, gun rights are more important than abortion rights, to pull out two of the more obvious differences.

And sometimes the big business interests matter. A big oil pipeline that is heavily opposed by environmentalists and urban citizens is viewed in terms of jobs created along the run for rural folks. Heck, it may result in a whole new town or two comin' up, and that means your local store just got two hours closer.

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Posted on 18-11-12, 02:22 (revision 1)

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Posted by CaptainJistuce

And sometimes the big business interests matter. A big oil pipeline that is heavily opposed by environmentalists and urban citizens is viewed in terms of jobs created along the run for rural folks. Heck, it may result in a whole new town or two comin' up, and that means your local store just got two hours closer.

Now you’re stereotyping. :) Rural America isn’t that disconnected, at least here in the upper plains.
I live near where the Bakken pipeline was put in, and let me tell you, no one in the area was happy. It was all out-of-state interests coming in and using eminent domain. The “thousands of temporary jobs” was actually “hundreds of preskilled workers coming in from out-of-state,” and the number of permanent jobs created was a whopping 8.

*edit* It was also really disheartening to see how much the system was broken then. Months before they held a hearing to approve the use of eminent domain to steal the land, almost all of the pipeline was already completed, installed everywhere else where people had willfully given access. We used to drive by the land of someone who was resisting, and the oil company already had all the materials and equipment delivered and sitting on the adjacent property, waiting. These people were never going to be given a fair legal chance because the entire Governor’s office was corrupt and had sold out.
Posted on 18-11-12, 03:38
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Okay, big oil pipeline was a bad example. I honestly don't know why I used it, given I already knew it was a bad example that wouldn't result in a new town or two.

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Posted on 18-11-20, 00:50

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Disconnected.... If you want to see disconnected come to the Central Valley of California and talk to any farmer between Highway 65 near the Sierras and Highway 101 on the coast. I work in and around farming industry, and I can tell you none of the progressive liberal policies have helped ease any of these drought that was caused when animal rights activists and the extreme leftists not only in California, but also Washington, D.C., decided that it was better to deny valley farming and civilization water reserves meant to come here or stay here, all over the Colorado River Smelt that invaded the Delta area near San Francisco/Oakland due to carelessness. Millions upon millions of gallons of fresh water that was supposed to be allocated for farming, water reserves, and even feeding, as byproduct, the local water cycle was flushed out of the delta into the ocean access points to desalinize the brackish water of the delta to save the fish, which eventually died anyway since they were non-native species and has no means to support themselves in the alien environment. Since that time, the water cycle has been effectively broken which has caused massive lack of rainfall in areas that usually get rain from about September to May, get literally rain from only December to February at best if any. People, who literally have no idea how much farming has been involved in conservation and land management efforts for years now in California, suddenly decided to stick their noses in and play, "we can do it better that you, but we have no idea what were are doing". As a result, it is what you see on the news what is happening due to lack of rain and rainfall this time of year, and pay for in the grocery stores around the nation. You also see it in the hospitals and doctors offices with more and more cases of bronchitis, asthma, and COPD.

I've lived here 15 years and I can tell you I've lived it, not just seen it.

Land is, despite what state politicians try to downplay or deny, sitting fallow in areas between Fresno, CA, and Kettlemen City, CA. Rainfall since this policy was started has dropped by significant percentages. Crops that used to be plentiful or sizeable in harvest, are now smaller or less developed at harvest resulting in many crops being phased out to either be replaced with crops more suited to arid climates. I've overseen farms being sold, repossessed by banks, farmland being sold for redevelopment for urbanization due to lack of sustainability under the new restrictive regulations. I've seen prices rise, even a few cents at first, but they've been rising for about a few years now.

I don't even want to get started on California and gasoline taxes, but honestly, we shouldn't be having to pay nearly 100% in price over the rest of the nation.

AS far as my stance of immigration? We have laws for a reason. We're a society. Societies have laws. Laws have to be enforced to maintain the society, or society collapses into chaos and anarchy. I would prefer to live in a society that is a society, not an anarchic maelstrom.

I'm a democrat and will always be one, but I'm not for all these liberal policies that seem to be always trial and error, and never about having a working sample to reproduce on a larger scale. There has to be responsibility taken immediately, not a can kicked down the road because it's convenient. Every issue we face here, can be solved, but yes, the solutions aren't going to be politically correct, ACLU supported, or harmless, but we have to do what is right the first time, not what is wrong a thousand times repeatedly either trying to make it work when it won't, or trying the next not-so-right thing hoping it will work when you know it won't either.

People wonder why people are voting against liberal candidates and liberal policies in the latest elections? It's the endless bullshit we keep getting from the left. What's so progressive if you cause regression, destruction, and decimation? Because the agendas do not match the will of the constituents. The Right wing and even moderate Republicans are actually listening to us, even democrats who are tired of this endless bullshit, and making efforts to actually implement policies that are what the constituents want and are asking for, not ignoring us, telling us we have no say, or turning a blind eye to the problems growing. None of us have wanted bigger government or more taxes. We have enough problems feeding and clothing our kids, getting gas to get to and from work, and trying to save enough to retire with when we're old.

Hell, look at the new congresswoman from New York who was elected because she's a Democratic Socialist, but went on record that she had ZERO clue as to how our government operated or was set up and designed. She actually thought there were three branches of congress and the office of the President was part of congress, totally not understanding the Executive Branch and Judicial Branches entirely. This is what people are voting for, and it's not helping when someone with no idea of their role is elected who wants to work in government, but doesn't even know beforehand how the government works. This lady has constituents who are probably going to be concerned that she is going to not effectively be able to represent them. It was a good idea to elect her because she was new, but now what? She has no idea how to conduct her job.

It's shit like this that caused Trump. Trump wasn't my ideal candidate, but I voted for him, why? Because I was tired of politicians, tired of the endless promises made in campaigns that get reversed, and tired of the progressivism that is going nowhere for the betterment of the nation, it's economy, and the people.

Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming
Posted on 18-11-28, 08:32
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Posted by james4591
Land is, despite what state politicians try to downplay or deny, sitting fallow in areas between Fresno, CA, and Kettlemen City, CA. Rainfall since this policy was started has dropped by significant percentages. Crops that used to be plentiful or sizeable in harvest, are now smaller or less developed at harvest resulting in many crops being phased out to either be replaced with crops more suited to arid climates. I've overseen farms being sold, repossessed by banks, farmland being sold for redevelopment for urbanization due to lack of sustainability under the new restrictive regulations. I've seen prices rise, even a few cents at first, but they've been rising for about a few years now.

I don't even want to get started on California and gasoline taxes, but honestly, we shouldn't be having to pay nearly 100% in price over the rest of the nation.

AS far as my stance of immigration? We have laws for a reason. We're a society. Societies have laws. Laws have to be enforced to maintain the society, or society collapses into chaos and anarchy. I would prefer to live in a society that is a society, not an anarchic maelstrom.


So what you're essentially saying is, global warming is happening - got to be those damn progressives fault? Farmers are going under, yes, but I fail to see how liberal policies have contributed significantly to this. In fact, those liberal policies are what's keeping California as one of the richest states in the U.S, and allows Californian farmers to deliver competitive produce.

As for immigration, liberal policies are necessary to keep the farm fields populated for harvest. Most immigrants are after a better way of life, not to loot and pillage the countryside. Quite a few can be ignorant about quite a few laws, of course, but that will always be the case between two cultures clashing.

IMO, immigration is a red herring. Yes, the land cannot take an infinite amount of people increase, but it can take 1-2% extra increase. Heck, Sweden in Europe one autumn let itself increase it's population with 5% by taking a massive influx of immigrants, that is the extreme end of the spectrum. The jury is still out on that one but so far the country is holding together just fine, a few minor issues cropping up here and there but it has certainly not killed the country by any means - and now many of those immigrants are starting to slowly gain traction in the job market.
Posted on 18-11-29, 16:11 (revision 3)

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The problem of global warming is the science around it is lackluster and is actually heavily politicized as a means to exert governmental force over populations without merit or need.

Yes there is a problem of greenhouse gases, but considering most of the heaviest polluters in the world consist of countries like China and India, but the USA gets the entire blame, is very much saying it's political. Plus add into the fact none of the science has accounted for solar minimum and maximums as well as global weather historical trends of warming and cooling, you can see why people keep saying, we need more evidence, especially those on the Conservative side.

The liberal policies have done more damage than good, if you read into the dirty fine print of the issues. Yes it has brought competition, but the competition from what? Other countries? We have to produce to stay competitive and to do that we have to have a supply that is exportable as well as staying local. You have to be able to not only compete abroad but at home as well. To compete successfully, you have to have a higher quality product with higher availability to be less costly to the consumer, not the opposite.

The problem of illegal immigration is one thing people don't consider. Rather than trying to solve problems back in their own countries, these people leave their countries which not only robs their homelands of a capable workforce that could change their own future, but it creates a problem for the local population of the country they immigrate into the issues of laziness among the local population. You may say, "It's jobs Americans don't want", but what does that really mean? It means "Americans won't take these jobs not because of manual labor or less pay", but because they feel, "it's not my problem, let someone else do it." but that also extends back into the family unit as well. Rather than mom and dad, or the kids taking up chores to keep the house going, they look for hired help to do the work for them. While it does give some person a job, it also robs the family of not only money, but also invites the aspect of being lazy that can spill over into more areas, like the yard upkeep, painting the house, caring for the children, washing the dishes, etc. The point is, it all starts small, but builds slowly...

It's like a home with a throw rug in the middle. Every day, someone living there sweeps all the dirt on the floor under the rug and walks away. Each day more dirt is swept under the rug, more and more, as a small mound builds below the rug going unnoticed. As time passes the pile below the rug builds ever so slowly, until one day, the pile is touching the ceiling, but has anyone noticed it? No because by now everyone is so used to the dirt being under the rug they fail to see the room is still dirty, much less that the dirt doesn't belong under the rug, but the rug also belongs on the floor.

The old saying was "The elephant in the room syndrome", I think that's an understatement... The real analogy should be "sweeping the dirt under the rug syndrome".

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Posted on 18-11-29, 16:15

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Posted by james4591
The problem of global warming is the science around it is lackluster [...] Plus add into the fact none of the science has accounted for solar minimum and maximums as well as global weather historical trends of warming and cooling

Mmmh...

My current setup: Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-1CHIP-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
Posted on 18-11-29, 17:30

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Posted by creaothceann
Posted by james4591
The problem of global warming is the science around it is lackluster [...] Plus add into the fact none of the science has accounted for solar minimum and maximums as well as global weather historical trends of warming and cooling

Mmmh...

That graph only goes back so far. The Earth cycles between periods where no ice occurs naturally and "ice ages" where it does.

Of course, it's undeniable[1] that carbon emissions are bad and we should try to reduce them. Then there's the fact that, if the scientists are right, the alternative is literally the end of most life on the planet.

There's no reason not to go for alternatives like wind energy, which is widely available and effective. The quality of life would stay the same, the only difference would be in the coffers of big oil CEOs. This tradeoff could be made without most people doing anything. It's only greed that stops it.

1. Some people do, though. They are brain-impaired.
Posted on 18-11-29, 19:07

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There is no question about whether we're making the planet hotter or how we're doing it. We know for sure that we're making it hotter and we know exactly how we're doing it.
Posted on 18-11-30, 00:19
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Even Exxon accepts it as fact, and has for years. While they were launching a HUGE "global warming is a myth" campaign, they were also adjusting their long-range planning to account for rising sea levels and thawing permafrost caused by global warming.

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Posted on 18-12-01, 16:28 (revision 2)
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Posted by james4591
The problem of global warming is the science around it is lackluster and is actually heavily politicized as a means to exert governmental force over populations without merit or need.


Out of, at this point, tens of thousands of studies, 99.9% agree Global Warming is a thing and that it is man made, and while there is still some debate about how bad it is, we're all in agreement that global warming will eventually lead to the extinction of all (surface) life on earth as we know it, as the entire earth turn into Sahara.

Posted by james4591
The liberal policies have done more damage than good, if you read into the dirty fine print of the issues.


So, end all trade deals then, and see how much better the economy will fare from that. The U.K. and Trump are both doing a great job at showing that.

Posted by james4591
The problem of illegal immigration is one thing people don't consider.
Rather than trying to solve problems back in their own countries, these people leave their countries which not only robs their homelands of a capable workforce that could change their own future, but it creates a problem for the local population of the country they immigrate into the issues of laziness among the local population. You may say, "It's jobs Americans don't want", but what does that really mean? It means "Americans won't take these jobs not because of manual labor or less pay", but because they feel, "it's not my problem, let someone else do it." but that also extends back into the family unit as well. Rather than mom and dad, or the kids taking up chores to keep the house going, they look for hired help to do the work for them. While it does give some person a job, it also robs the family of not only money, but also invites the aspect of being lazy that can spill over into more areas, like the yard upkeep, painting the house, caring for the children, washing the dishes, etc. The point is, it all starts small, but builds slowly...


You are making very interesting assumptions here.

#1: That the origin country is open to change. Many of these countries are kept in poverty by design, and any attempts to change this is met with invasion or civil war, sometimes ending in genocide. See, for instance, Chile and the Pinochet regime.

#2: That even if the origin country is open to change, the immigrants actually have anything to say about that. If you're a poor peasant scraping by with very little, well, no. Most immigrants do not have the means to propagate change even if they could. It's like asking a black slave in the 1830s to abolish the slavery - ain't gonna happen.

#3: That the youth of today is just being lazy. They are not, and we need to stop thinking of them as such. But the immigrants are not stealing any jobs - they are taking jobs and positions the natives cannot fill, for one reason or another. One reason could be the job pays too little to allow anyone to survive except a cheap labor worker, another could be that not enough natives have the proper education.

The problems you see are therefore not due to immigration. That does not mean the problems does not exist, but the immigration is a red herring that fools like to blame their, admittedly very real, problems on - instead of working to improve their own community. And a lot of energy is spent on what amounts to drama, instead of seeking real solutions. Kicking everyone out isn't a real solution to everything, but instead the biggest admittance to failure you can make.
Posted on 18-12-02, 10:55

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Posted by james4591
AS far as my stance of immigration? We have laws for a reason. We're a society. Societies have laws. Laws have to be enforced to maintain the society, or society collapses into chaos and anarchy. I would prefer to live in a society that is a society, not an anarchic maelstrom.


weirdly enough no country with a relative high amount of immigration seem to have descended into an anarchic maelstrom.And generally speaking, I also find it strange that every time there's concerns about immigration levels it always seem to be because of black or muslim or brown immigration.Anyway, western countries need immigration if they want to avoid going the way of the dodo (or *coughJapancough*).It's just the way it is.

Posted by creaothceann
Posted by james4591
The problem of global warming is the science around it is lackluster [...] Plus add into the fact none of the science has accounted for solar minimum and maximums as well as global weather historical trends of warming and cooling

Mmmh...


As far as mocking global warming denial, I prefer this one.
Posted on 18-12-02, 18:29

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The US immigration issue is one that I remain astonished at how black and white people are seeing it despite the fact that it doesn't need a black and white solution. You've got one side that seems to want to let as few people into the country as possible, and another side that seems to want to let people in carte blanche and just stop enforcing immigration laws. Both seem to have largely forgotten that we have both illegal and legal immigration.

I would love to see more legalized immigration and better enforcement on illegal immigration. The more people are allowed in through the proper channels:

1. the more safely we can assume that people trying to bypass the proper channels are up to something
2. the more tax money we'll get, because they won't feel pressured to work under-the-table jobs for fear of getting caught; some of this money can go to border patrol

The popular notion that the immigration issue is as simple as either letting anybody in without any documentation or keeping everybody out is straight up ridiculous, and it drives me bonkers that this is how most immigration discussions are framed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Screw_Yall
Posted on 18-12-02, 21:30
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Posted by Covarr
The US immigration issue is one that I remain astonished at how black and white people are seeing it despite the fact that it doesn't need a black and white solution. You've got one side that seems to want to let as few people into the country as possible, and another side that seems to want to let people in carte blanche and just stop enforcing immigration laws.

There's this thing where humans like to use social pressure to enforce social norms. If somebody is flagrantly violating a social norm, there's an escalation of responses until the violation stops. Often that escalation is along the lines of: funny looks, dirty looks, grumbling, telling off, yelling, and physical violence. This works pretty well for social norms like "stand to the side of the escalator if you're not going to keep walking", but less well for social norms that involve a rational or moral component.

I imagine there's a lot of people whose views on immigration don't come from economic or moral argument, but have been learned from the people they grew up with. "When I was a kid, I saw somebody hassling an immigrant, and all the grown-ups around me gave that guy dirty looks and grumbled, so I understand that hassling immigrants is violating a social norm, and I should enforce it the same way". When somebody comes along with an anti-immigration argument, they are by definition violating a social norm, and if they don't stop they're going to get yelled at, even if their argument is sensible.

(rewriting that last paragraph to describe the anti-immigration viewpoint is left as an exercise for the reader)

It seems to me that America really needs to have a sensible, level-headed discussion of immigration (among other things) that's not filled with subtle "I'm clearly in the right and those guys are clearly chumps" jabs, but that's always going to be really, really difficult while there are so many people who only understand the subject in terms of social norms.

As an aside, I'd like to thank RetroUnknown/james4591 for posting their viewpoint here. Because of the whole social norms thing, it's rare to find anybody talking about their actual experiences, mostly you just get yelling. I found it very educational to hear about what you'd seen in a rural community and what issues you're worried about.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Posted on 18-12-03, 02:35

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Well, if I want to follow the guidelines of the radical left and progressive movement, then the immigrants, who were claimed can't change their own country, I refer you back to the writings of Karl Marx since him and Socialism and Communism seem to be the roaring trends as to what they can do for society...

Eviscerate the proletariat...

Violent and blood soaked revolution in the name of progress is then the only recourse to ending the oppression in their homelands. Haul all the government officials, shoot them all in the head, chop up the corpses like hamburger, burn their remains in a huge bonfire, and film it as a huge propaganda media piece.

Why waste time doing it through democracy? Russia was overthrown quick enough, and the Tsar and his family executed mercilessly as a symbol of the Soviet might.

Find me on Facebook at @jimsretrogaming
Posted on 18-12-03, 12:55 (revision 1)

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Sudden violent revolutions can only lead two one of two things:

- Spontaneous corruption
- A weak society that's easily corrupted

Also "borders are fake, though".
Posted on 18-12-03, 16:47

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Posted by Screwtape

I imagine there's a lot of people whose views on immigration don't come from economic or moral argument, but have been learned from the people they grew up with. "When I was a kid, I saw somebody hassling an immigrant, and all the grown-ups around me gave that guy dirty looks and grumbled, so I understand that hassling immigrants is violating a social norm, and I should enforce it the same way". When somebody comes along with an anti-immigration argument, they are by definition violating a social norm, and if they don't stop they're going to get yelled at, even if their argument is sensible.

As an immigrant myself, I can understand how some arguments can reinforce the anti-immigration sentiment; however I do think that being proactive and finding solutions work far better than being closed and uncooperative. Just a minor example, driving day to day I encounter drivers (that are visibly immigrant) who do not seem to have a firm grasp of traffic rules and etiquette. They either are unfamiliar of the proper rules or are continuing the driving habits they've learned from their origin countries. This can cause a lot of frustration especially when you expect certain behavior on the road. I myself find this doubly frustrating since I put in effort to make sure I learn the ins and outs and be a proper driver, and here are others that just put that to waste.

I feel partly this is due to the lack of education that should immediately be provided to immigrants when they settle. Sometimes I feel the immigration system merely attends to administrative matters, as opposed to ensuring immigrants are properly taken care of and equipped to become contributing members of society -- seems like what happens is they bag, tag, and release people without checking if these people are truly ready to live in the new environment. On the part of the immigrants though, they should also take the initiative to make sure they get as much knowledge as they can as soon as they arrive, and make it their responsibility to follow all the rules and familiarize themselves with the basic conduct and how to carry themselves in their host country.

Anyways, this mostly just me rambling so please bear with me if I don't make too much sense.

Posted by wareya

Also "borders are fake, though".

"Can you see any borders from here? What has borders given us?"
- Solo Wing Pixy - Ace Combat Zero

I still have no idea what I'm talking about.
Posted on 18-12-03, 21:55

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I think I was brought up in a different environment than what was stated by Screwtape in that my father and most of his friends were European immigrants and there was the occasional stereotypical ribbing, but nothing ever malicious. I had people try the, "Hail Hitler!" thing on me (can you guess what nationality why father is yet? lol), but they wouldn't try it a second time after having to listen to me harp on about the bullshit they were speaking and how it didn't relate to me at all.

Now being an immigrant myself, I've found there are about three or four steps to being "accepted" in this country depending on the people around you:
1. Can you speak Japanese?
2. Do you understand the culture and act accordingly?
3. Is your Japanese pronunciation at an acceptable level? (ffs, this is just impossible in some cases)
4. Is your occupation something that doesn't involve teaching English in English?

Even after this, there are just a massive amount of people that don't accept foreigners for whatever reason. I'm the only foreigner allowed in a local bar near us just because my girlfriend is a customer. Even then, I'm lectured/babied (this depends on whether I argue about it or not) on whatever new thing I'm not doing Japanese enough.

I'm happy that my girlfriend's parents are accepting and have no qualms about me.
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