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Posted on 19-05-28, 14:52
One of a kind!

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Errors and warnings. Pragma directives to suppress a warning take those codes so localized compilers can disable the right items.
Posted on 19-05-28, 19:57 (revision 1)
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Posted by tomman
You're clinically insane.

"English is the only language that matters". Got it.

Next time you're going to suggest to do away with media dubs and subs for any language that it is not English because "fuck your cultural heritage, you're an animal if you insist on speaking that arcane non-English language".

And FYI, VS/GCC do have localized error messages. In the case of VS, it's pretty easy as each error message also has a error code associated to it, so you just look for the error code. In the case of GCC it's always tricky because they're *NIX graybeards that hate error codes for whatever reason, but Google often helps in that case.

I'm not even English, but it is empirically true it is the only language that matters (other than Russian or Chinese, possibly). I have nothing against subs/dubs, although I've never watched a dubbed movie/TV show that wasn't a children's cartoon in my entire life, and I'd only watch something subtitled in my native language in the cinema - why spend several hours looking for poorly translated subtitles on shady websites, when I can just use the ordinary English subtitles made by competent translators? But this is just a personal opinion. Nothing wrong with translating movies into Swahili, as long as I'm not the one paying for it.

What I however DO have something against is the completely pointless localization of stuff that gets shoved down your throat. FWIW, I distinctly remember the Visual Studio we used in school as being in English while the rest of the OS wasn't. Maybe they had the good sense to change it back, or Microsoft had the good sense to not burn cash on translating it, but anyhow that was in good ol' American English, as all software should be. Other Englishes are fine too, and I can hardly tell the difference anyway.

I never liked those numeric pragmas. I might be clinically insane, but it's a hell of a lot clearer, at least to me, to figure out what "#define _CRT_SECURE_NO_WARNINGS" means than to guess at the meaning of "#pragma warning(disable: 4996)". Specifically for programming languages, why would you want them? You have to understand English anyway, since that's what the keywords are in, and even if you have mnemonics for those all the library functions will be in English, at least in theory. (strncpy isn't really English, but nor is it not English, and it certainly isn't some other language).

At least they could just put one define for each language. It's still easier to figure out the meaning of _CRT_SEGURO_NO_ADVERTENCIAS than 4996. I suppose it's a shame if there are collisions. They'd have to tell their translators to not do that, or namespace the foreign strings, yielding something baroque like _ES_CRT_SEGURO_NO_ADVERTENCIAS.

Still better than 4996. In fact, I would prefer it if they picked a language completely at random, even if it weren't English, and replaced the numeric warnings with that. At least you can memorize the meaning of _CRT_SALAMA_HAKUNA_ONYO, and you already got one of the three words down if you watched the Lion King as a child, which is more than you can say for 4996.

EDIT: Nope, Microsoft just didn't bother translating Visual Studio (or at least not VS code, but should be the same) into my language. They did translate the website, and it's absolutely atrocious. It's not grammatically incorrect, but whoever did it is not a talented translator, that's for sure. Extremely odd phrasings which would make sense in English, sprinkled with somewhat archaic formalities. In their defense, the English version is not much better:

Stay on top of the details as you move your project forward, with new debugging improvements including Autos, Locals, and Watch window search, better performance, and a Collections visualizer. drive code maintainability and fix errors, warnings, and suggestions with one-click code clean-up and new refactoring capabilities. A document health indicator will help you identify issues, so you can get your code “to green.”

How many errors can you find in the above passage?

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-28, 21:45 (revision 1)
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Eh, I'll take error codes over localized incomprehensible strings always.

But no matter if you go with errors or identifiers, the important bit is to actually document your shit. It's no fun to get a "Code 8C09000F" or "E_NOT_A_FROBULATOR_COMBUSTOR" if you go to The Fine Manual to find a one-liner that tells you absolutely nothing... or even worse, a 404 Not Found! Microsoft is particularly nasty at this.

Posted by sureanem
Stay on top of the details as you move your project forward, with new debugging improvements including Autos, Locals, and Watch window search, better performance, and a Collections visualizer. drive code maintainability and fix errors, warnings, and suggestions with one-click code clean-up and new refactoring capabilities. A document health indicator will help you identify issues, so you can get your code “to green.”

How many errors can you find in the above passage?

Sounds like the typical marketing drivel you get nowadays to me, which is meaningless by design. In other words, noise. Who cares if it has a bunch of grammar/spelling errors on it? Sane people will turn their heads elsewhere, while CxOs will orgasm while synergizing their entropies and opening their corporate checkbooks wide open.

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Posted on 19-05-28, 23:27
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At least you can try and find out what a frobolator combustor is by means of arcane Google queries. No such dice for 8C09000F.

Assuming they prioritize marketing drivel above actual software (probable) the translation of the software would be even worse than that of the marketing drivel. Except for no-name no-budget China products, where I have no expectations whatsoever, I do expect for my software to have competently written text.

I'm not demanding any eloquent prose, and if you can cut the message in half by playing fast and loose with the grammar that's fine ("load file %s failed: disk error"), but it angers and disgusts me to see "translations" where it's apparent the "translator"'s idea of "good" is "you can understand it, so what's the problem?". I do speak English, so there is no need to pretend I don't and give me a watered-down version of the product.

And since all educated people speak English, and only educated people use computers for (technologically) productive purposes, there is no need to ever waste money on this crap outside of, say, smartphone apps and websites for uneducated people. I would understand the need to localize Word and such, since occasionally kids, shopkeepers, etc might use it, but why a bloody programming tool? Either you're self-taught, in which case you speak English, or you learned it in school, in which case you went to school, and thus speak English. There's no scenario in which someone learns, say, C#, without first learning English.

Maybe in Spanish there are perfect translations for everything, but unless you have the good fortune to belong to a major linguistic group you're better off keeping everything in English. And even if this were the case, I would still argue localization of technical software is harmful as it cuts you off from the wider world.

inb4 preserve your cultural heritage and the independence of your national software industry- The chips are American, the software is American, just what point is there to making life difficult for yourself and everyone else? Fine if AMD were Chinese and had a whole different ecosystem around it, then it might indeed be reasonable to use Chinese there, but as it is now it's just a painful nuisance that needs to go away. It's not as if American companies being English-only has saved their software industry's independence, is it? Or on the converse, as if Europe develops any less software than they would if their developers would be using their native languages.

Jeff Atwood has a quite sickening outlook on life, but in this matter he's actually right: https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-ugly-american-programmer/

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-29, 02:15
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> Jeff Atwood

Fuck that guy too, he is the asshole that came up with Discourse, "you're on mobile? that's different!" and "gamification of message boards". To me his opinion is as worthless as a bag of moldy bread.

I'll always prefer using my software in Spanish whenever possible, developing software in my native language, and keep contributing with localizations when it's at my reach.

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Posted on 19-05-29, 14:12 (revision 1)
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He's the stereotype of "soulless Silicon Valley programmer". On the other hand, he made Stack Overflow, so I'd say it evens out.

But yes, fuck Discordurse (actually, both are terrible). It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.

EDIT: What do you get if you take away the o from Discourse?

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-29, 17:56
Now with less self-mockery

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Posted by sureanem
It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.
https://github.com/search?q=abxd
Posted on 19-05-29, 21:23
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Posted by Kawa
Posted by sureanem
It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.
https://github.com/search?q=abxd

ABXD is very nice, but I don't think it scales that well.

It definitely is the best open-source forum software for small boards that don't need those features however, insofar as it is open-source.

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-29, 21:30
Hard to label!

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Posted by sureanem
ABXD is very nice
I stopped reading at this point. Thank you, that's very kind of you to say.
Posted on 19-05-29, 21:42
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Posted by sureanem
Posted by Kawa
Posted by sureanem
It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.
https://github.com/search?q=abxd

ABXD is very nice, but I don't think it scales that well.


When I hear "scale", all I understand is "Javascript hipsters" and "hyperconverged computing".

In other words, more noise.

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Posted on 19-05-29, 21:55
Stirrer of Shit
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Posted by tomman
Posted by sureanem
Posted by Kawa
Posted by sureanem
It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.
https://github.com/search?q=abxd

ABXD is very nice, but I don't think it scales that well.


When I hear "scale", all I understand is "Javascript hipsters" and "hyperconverged computing".

In other words, more noise.

No, I mean it in the absolute literal sense of handling many people/posts. If you want high performance, just rewrite it in C (or Rust if you're scared of pointers) and get >100x better performance than Node/PHP, the real challenge is the humans.

Stuff like thread subscriptions/quote notification, guest posting, image uploads, thread previews, and such. Without those, it just devolves into complete chaos and a shouting match given enough users. Reddit is a great example of how this eventually happens.

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-29, 22:23
Draco in Leather Pants

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"just rewrite in C"

Except for the missing # that's almost an idea I already entertained years ago.
Posted on 19-05-29, 22:33
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Why C#?

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-29, 22:34
Secretly, I'm Charles Darwin

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Cos I like it.
Posted on 19-05-29, 23:49
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So all message boards must scale because they COULD have as many users as Fecesbook or Reddit someday. That's an... interesting rationale. And by "interesting", I mean completely nuts.

As much as PHP is the fractal of bad design, there is nothing wrong with message board platforms like ABXD, phpBB or SMF for small boards like this one, or somewhat bigger boards with a couple hundred active users shitposting every hour.

Not everything has to be BIG or fancy, y'know. It's like quoting a customer for a Cray supercomputer if all they need is something to host their HR/payroll app for their 3 users making paychecks for 250 employees. An supermaket Lenovo/HP shitbox will do the job just fine.

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Posted on 19-05-30, 00:36
Why couldn't you put the bunny back in the box?

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Imagine, an ABXD with sharting sharding. What even is that?
Posted on 19-05-30, 08:43
Stirrer of Shit
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Posted by tomman
So all message boards must scale because they COULD have as many users as Fecesbook or Reddit someday. That's an... interesting rationale. And by "interesting", I mean completely nuts.

As much as PHP is the fractal of bad design, there is nothing wrong with message board platforms like ABXD, phpBB or SMF for small boards like this one, or somewhat bigger boards with a couple hundred active users shitposting every hour.

Not everything has to be BIG or fancy, y'know. It's like quoting a customer for a Cray supercomputer if all they need is something to host their HR/payroll app for their 3 users making paychecks for 250 employees. An supermaket Lenovo/HP shitbox will do the job just fine.

You're right in that this would be a completely insane line of reasoning, but I have never said that.
Posted by sureanem
It definitely is the best open-source forum software for small boards that don't need those features however, insofar as it is open-source.

Posted by sureanem
Stuff like thread subscriptions/quote notification, guest posting, image uploads, thread previews, and such. Without those, it just devolves into complete chaos and a shouting match given enough users. Reddit is a great example of how this eventually happens.

92 users is far from enough. Even 9200 won't do the trick. I'm talking ~1 million or more. One post per minute or more, something like that. For such forums, there is no good FOSS software.

There was a certain photograph about which you had a hallucination. You believed that you had actually held it in your hands. It was a photograph something like this.
Posted on 19-05-30, 09:44
Custom title here

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Posted by Kawa
Imagine, an ABXD with sharting sharding. What even is that?

That's when a quarter of the community leaves to post on a shard board started by someone with an axe to grind, right?

--- In UTF-16, where available. ---
Posted on 19-05-30, 11:10
Secretly, I'm Charles Darwin

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That's almost the ABXD origin story.
Posted on 19-06-07, 11:14
Full mod

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Posted by sureanem
Well, then you listen to them and see if any of them have reasonable opinions. I mean, you'd have to read through them to censor them anyway, and after you've done that there isn't really much of a point to deleting them.

The thing is, humans hate change, and they are also very, very good at inventing reasonable-sounding justifications for however they happen to feel at any given moment. When some kind of change is announced, it's a safe bet that 90% of the response will boil down to "I hate change" with creative variations. As such, the actual comments themselves are unnecessary; the only interesting information is whether the reactions are significantly more or less than the expected 90% of the total volume.

The signals for "this response is not knee-jerk reaction" are things like: longer than average (but not too long), tidy paragraphs instead of sprawling run-on sentences, maybe some formatting like lists and headings, basically anything that indicates the author spent time thinking about the reader instead of scrawling the hottest take they could. None of those things require close reading or empathetic consideration. It's possible some useful and interesting responses get accidentally scooped up with the unhelpful ones, but nothing is ever perfect.

As for deleting or at least hiding such comments, if someone is serious about listening to interesting feedback, they'll want to come back and re-read that feedback, and show it to other people. That's a lot easier without the unhelpful distractions, even if only because they don't have to scroll so far.

The point is that there's a conflict between the idea of theming, which requires a rigidly-defined list of standard widgets, and the idea that application authors should be allowed to customise widgets or invent new ones if they think it's appropriate. The design of GNOME's desktop (or any desktop) or GNOME's default theme (or any theme) or GNOME's theme API (or any theme API) are not relevant to the discussion, because this conflict has affected every desktop based on every GUI toolkit.

It is, though. If GNOME would have a default theme designed by, say, God, that everyone found completely perfect there would be no need to have theming support at all.If the default theme was something like the default iOS or Mac OS X theme, people would find it acceptable. And if the default theme was butt-ugly, it would be imperative to have theming support.

It's literally impossible to have a theme so perfect that everybody likes it; the best you can hope for is a theme good enough that changing it is more trouble than it's worth. I'm pretty sure it's also impossible to have a theme so ugly that everybody hates it; Amiga Workbench 1.0 and Windows 1.0 didn't immediately doom their respective product lines.

A widget toolkit with a theme engine makes some things awesome and some things terrible; a widget toolkit that can't easily be themed (like macOS and Windows have) keeps everything mediocre. Is that better? Maybe? Sometimes?

I'm guessing that the distros' default themes aren't exactly crazy, just making shoddy applications look a bit wonkier than on the dev's machine. On sane DEs like Xfce, I have zero issues of this kind, which makes me think the real issue is that they don't want users to be able to "damage" their precious branding.

More likely, Xfce's default theme is close enough to boring grey-and-blue Adwaita that it doesn't cause any problems. Some Linux vendors have much bolder branding, say in brown and orange, and just to stand out they do unusual things like have menus and toolbars in light-on-dark while the rest of the application is dark-on-light.

GTK+3's theme engine I guess doesn't make it easy to have wildly different colour-schemes for different parts of the window, so themes that want to do that have to add a bunch of custom rules to tweak each supported application... but there's no way to limit a particular rule to a particular application. So if a standard GNOME app happens to name one of its toolbar widgets "switcher", the Linux vendor theme says "widgets named 'switcher' use light-coloured text". Then a third-party app happens to also use the name "switcher" for some other widget that's *not* in the toolbar, so it winds up with light text on a light background.

> There's absolutely no need to start whining about this, when you could just not implement the feature if it breaks your obscure widgets.

You do realise that application authors and GTK's maintainers are different people, right?

> Unicode was a mistake, and it just keeps getting worse and worse (emoji, RTL, Chinese characters breaking BMP). The Europeans already had ISO 8859-1, the Russians KOI8-R, and for the web there was HTML entities. Since everyone who uses the Internet speaks English anyway, computer localization is just a waste of time and money and unpleasant for generally everybody. It would be far easier if you knew that everything everywhere would be en-US, no surprises.

To go from "I do not need this thing" to "None of the six billion humans on the planet needs this thing" is quite a feat of extrapolation. Does it genuinely not occur to you that if you don't understand a thing, maybe you just haven't yet encountered the problem it solves?

> In fact, I would prefer it if they picked a language completely at random, even if it weren't English, and replaced the numeric warnings with that. At least you can memorize the meaning of _CRT_SALAMA_HAKUNA_ONYO, and you already got one of the three words down if you watched the Lion King as a child, which is more than you can say for 4996.

Not strictly relevant to the point under discussion, but I do want to point out PHP's famous "expected T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM" error.

> It's a damn shame there isn't any good open-source forum software.

GNU Mailman and INN say hi.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
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