Hello, I was just curious if Sierra has ever expressed an opinion on the use of their graphics in fanmade games. And what's the atmosphere of this AGI community? Open pool of resources among fan games or best to do everything yourself?|
I don't mean actually putting Roger Wilco (for example) in my game, but maybe using existing characters and objects as templates to help in creating my own.
I am more of a technical person than a visual artist, and while I have a friend drawing the backgrounds for me, the characters and items are still looking pretty bad for the most part.
Thanks for any responses.
|AGI1122||I am not really too sure on how they feel about it but I would rather be on the safe side and not use their material. The only thing I might use is probably sound though since I can't get my midi's to turn into rol then turn my rol into a snd file.|
Yeah, I wouldn't want to use their stuff unless they have officially gave their approval at some point, even if the chances of them complaining were low.|
While browsing around the AGI websites I discovered this page which should be of some help for me: http://www.classicgaming.com/agisci/agigarc.shtml
I'm assuming most of you know about it, but for those that are new like me, it's collection of AGI graphics that are pretty much fair game for game creators.
|AGI1122||The only thing I don't like about that page is nobody has contributed to it in quite a while. Too bad they don't have pics though that would be cool too.|
Well, I guess the pictures are a little more personal to the game since they are so big and more detailed.|
Once I'm done with my game I'll most likely release the graphics to the public assuming it's ok with my friend who's doing most of them (I'm pretty sure she won't mind)
|AGI1122||That would be pretty cool. I would release my graphics too except I suck at art on the computer, and my artist is away right now and won't be back for a while. Well anyway good luck on your game.|
Thanks, hopefully once I get used to the logic stuff it should come together pretty smoothly and relatively quickly.|
And I know how you feel about the graphics. The programming isn't much of a problem (it is what I do basically) and I should have the music under control also, but if I didn't get my friend to do the artwork for me..let's just say it wouldn't be pretty. :)
|AGI1122||This pretty much what I do. I have learned many programming languages such as c++, visual basic, and qbasic but I still like and prefer AGI. This is probably because the first game I ever played as a kid was Space Quest 2 which is an AGI game.|
Hehe, same here pretty much. I remember when we first got our computer my uncle brought over a bunch of games, Space Quest 1 and 2 were among them. I've been in love with Sierra "Quest" games ever since.|
I actually started making my own Sierra style game in BASIC shortly after that, but I was new to programming and gave up before I got too far..guess I can now live out my childhood dream :)
I think that especially when you begin creating games with AGI, it is an invaluable help to play around with exisiting Sierra-screens. I remember having problems with perspectives and the proportions ego <-> background. Even when you're experienced with AGI-graphics it is still great to take existing scenes and modify them until you can't tell what the screen looked like before. The reasons are the same: perspective (of rooms inside buildings) and proportions are just perfect in Sierra games.|
About two years ago Sierra made a note that it is illegal to use any of their graphics, sounds, or anything else like that in your games. It infringes their copyright.|
My personal opinion is that people should draw their own graphics. I know people say things like "I'm a terrible artist", but that doesn't matter. Just draw what you can. If we cared about graphics, we wouldn't be interested in AGI. It's the game that's important.
If I notice people using Sierra graphics in their game, I won't put it on my site, and will remove any games if I am notified they have any. I also hate people who steal graphics from other's fanmade games.
I agree with you, the main problem (for me at least) is the animation. I can make a halfway decent, or at least good enough, character, but cannot seem to make a humanoid look like they're walking without any help. Still wouldn't want to use any graphics from other games unless I know the author doesn't mind.|
This has become a nonissue for me since I originally posted the message though. I have walked my friend through using the view editor, and she has produced some really nice figures so far.
By the way, what is your site?
This is where his site is.
In your site I read a bad reviews about very bad graphics like
AGI phantasmagoria and Tex McPhillips 1.
It may prevent the authors to finish theirs games because they draw bad drawing. The cheap way is to borrow the sierra
graphics (background, animation) to theirs games.
I guess to see a building with the word like "home" or "shop"
on it may not right way to make building but think not every one may draw well.
I wonder if the reviews may hurt some authors because they
are not a good artist.
Removing fanmade games with sierra graphics may hurt the
agi community since the ultimate agi sci website is the number
one for any sierra fans like me.
Will SQ: the lost chapter and Time Quest remove your site?
If Sierra doesn't want fanmade games to use their artwork then I their wishes should be obeyed (even if you don't agree with them, which I really don't ;)|
It has the potential to harm the AGI community, but it does not have to. AGI game makers could help eachother out by pooling the resources together and allowing others to borrow from previous fan games. Perhaps make some sort of system which lets people know what resources are free to use and under what circumstances. What is over at http://www.classicgaming.com/agisci is a start, but doesn't allow people to put restrictions on their art which may be what is stopping some people from donated them.
I don't know, it's just a thought.
DG: the agimouse adventure game is a domain public not a freeware. If you wish you may put anything from DG to
|ACiDiC74||That's cool, that's how my game will be once it's completed. Hopefully that's how the majority of the fan game creators feel. It might encourage more people to take a shot at creating games if they don't have to do everything themselves while learning.|
Note that most people look similar, but different. Using a character as a guide should be fine, but make them look different.|
Seeing cloned characters and backgrounds and the like is not alright, although cameo appearances by well known sierra characters should be alright eg.
You haven't such n'such seen since so n'so quest!
Looks like you just stumbled onto the set of so n'so quest!
Sierra used to do it in their games as a form of advertisement, eg. SQ1 ad in KQ2, KQ1 castle in SQ1, KQ4 in Hero Quest 1, etc. As long as the cloned character only makes a brief appearance.
Just a few points...
- Don't try to pass off someone else work as you own.
- The sierra games we're talking about are abandonware?
- Abandonware means... copyright has been abandoned?
correct me if I'm wrong.
Still doesn't mean you can run out and copy their characters, backgrounds, sounds, etc.
P.S. The more different it looks, the better. If we wanted to see pq1 or sq2 we'd probably be playing it.
Abandonware is where games are so old people ASSUME that the company doesn't care when you distribute them.. it doesn't mean the copyright has expired though.. the company can still kick your ass.|
if the copyright has expired or the company released the game into the public domain then it's definately ok to put those graphics into your games.. but that's only if there's no copyright to get in your way.
Of course, the big issue with copyright is not actually protecting the author's work from somebody claiming it as their own (that's just the noble-sounding reason we give)...it's actually money.|
The copyright issue as I understand it is this: Basically, it's only worthwhile for Sierra to pursue copyright infringement cases if they perceive that they are losing money because of the infringement. That isn't particularly likely for a few graphics stolen from their nearly 20-year-old games. Now, if somebody did a remake of one of their games that they still sell (for example, Leisure Suit Larry) or started distributing those games as freeware, then it would be in their interest to pursue the case. Otherwise, it would probably cost more than it would benefit them to press charges.
Where exactly it might benefit them in terms of stolen graphics is fuzzy. If you borrow Sonny Bonds from Police Quest 1 and use him as ego in your game, Sierra might be able to prosecute by saying that you're making another Police Quest. However, if you borrow a door, they might have a harder time doing anything about it.
The big issue is registered trademarks. Sierra HAS to contest registered trademark infringement, or they lose the trademark. I'm not sure what things are registered trademarks, but it might not be a good idea to make a game with Space Quest in the title.
However, it is, in general, better to use your own graphics whenever possible. It might speed development to steal graphics, but you might be putting yourself at risk.
There are modified Sierra graphics in the demo of Jen's Quest. The guards in front of the gate are roger wilco from SQ1 painted black (and with new animation added), and the car is a recolored car from Police Quest. I'll probably eliminate those in my next demo and replace them with stuff I created.
That's all true about the copyrights and trademarks and stuff, but I am not too concerned with the legalities, I think showing respect to the wishes of the creator is the real issue here.|
I mean, I'm sure the creators of fan games don't hold trademarks, and at best they most likely only have a default copyright on their art. It still doesn't mean that it's fair game to use their work against their will.
Believe me, I understand what you're talking about, if we were actually talking about the real authors' wishes.|
As for the issue with Sierra, the Sierra that exists now is not the Sierra that created any of the AGI games. It is under new ownership and I'm not sure any of the people who worked on the AGI games are still employed there (in any case, they aren't the ones saying whether it's ok to use AGI graphics or not). I'm not saying that makes it ok to use Sierra's copyrighted graphics, although I wouldn't say it's "wrong" to do so. What I am saying is that Mark Crowe coming to us and saying "Please don't use backgrounds from Space Quest in any of your fan-made games" seems a lot closer to being the author's wishes than Sierra coming to us and saying the same thing. In fact, it would be disrespecting the true author's wishes to use Space Quest graphics if Sierra ok'd it but Mark Crowe asked that it not be done.
But that's not the issue with copyright. Sierra pretty much owns the copyright to the backgrounds in Space Quest, even if no one currently employed there actually drew them.
As a side note, I'm pretty sure ALL copyrights are by default. But whether your work is actually copyrighted by law in the case of making an AGI game is up for debate.
Apart from the question if using existing graphics (either from Sierra or from fanmade games) are legal (its definitely not), a thing came to my mind:|
I think the fact that we are still playing around with AGI is also some kind of showing respect to the creators of AGI and AGI-games. That means that all of us are people that appreciate other peoples work also from an ideal point of view. Every fangame, even if the graphics or the language or whatever are terrible, is being welcomed by everyone of us, because it was made by someone sharing our interest. All of us put a lot of time and energy into our games although we know that we wont sell any copies and besides only one or two dozen people will play the games.
To sum it up: We are different from people playing nothing but Quake, watching Disney-Films and reading Harry Potter because AGI really MEANS something to us. (no offense intended if you like Quake/Disney/Harry Potter, except for Harry I also like these commercial things) In most cases its the memory of joyful hours with these old games that keeps us sticking to the old games. But 99% of all the gamers out there are not like that, they want the fastest, newest graphics, the loudest soundtrack ever, and if there is something new and better, they will switch to the "next big thing".
And now for my point: As we all are people with that kind of attitude, it should be (and I think it IS) normal for us not to use anything without giving credit. In our project V (as in every fanproject I assume) we use views for the characters that are based on Sierra's player-character-view. We will give a credit to Sierra for that.
I think as Ken Williams includes links to fanmade agi-games on his homepage, he will be aware of what we do and how we work. So I dont expect any legal problems.
The only important thing is: If someone uses anything from our game V, he should give us a credit. That's how our community should work. I'd like to know if you all agree with me on that or if anyone thinks graphics from his game should not be used by the last 30 AGI-fans on planet Earth.
|AGI1122||I totally agree with you except I prefer them asking permission from me in advance then they can use my work as long as they give credit somewhere.|
|ACiDiC74||Yep Bokkers, that's it exactly ;) Glad to see that the other people around here (the vocal ones anyway) are like-minded, makes it just that much more satisfying to be playing around with this system.|