|Quest||I recently downloaded Al Pond 1. It is a very nice game, but the vulgar language is unasked for and repulsive. Why one would spoil your game with phrases such as "f*** your shutup" is beyond me. Maybe this forum should expect from their members to exercise self-censoring, or at the least to have a warning in the introduction screen stating that the game contains vulgar language.|
This forum is about SCI games, not about content rating.|
You probably know that some of the most beloved SCI games were the Larry series, and they were all vulgar.
I too believe that a warning message is appropriate, but I wouldn't care less if there's no such message.
Omer, I disagree. |
Larry and other series of Sierra were never about being vulgar or about sex. Instead, they were portraying an anti-hero thru the use of word jokes, an art where Al Lowe has become very skilled in.
I've had multiple discussions with people on how to maintain the spirit of the old Sierra games and abandoning programmers that did not intend to use AGI and SCI-engines to come up with decent adventures. How frustrating must it be for Brian and other groundbreaking programmers to have their engines being used for vulgar and low-quality adventures? F*ck Quest may be the most downloaded fanmade program in the world... but it in no way reflects the old Sierra-programs. And that's part of why these engines were brought back to life.
If we truly want to carry out AGI and SCI, I think some sort of self-censorship is necessary. Otherwise, these games will die the harsh way...
My two cents (and of many others),
I agree to see a warning from the author's site about vulgar language.|
Myself, I used a warning of nudity scenes for my Naturette games on my site.
If the player does not like vulgar language or nudity, just do not download it.
Well...I would have to agree with both CapTAmerk@ and Omer a little. |
One problem arises from the arguement though. The creators of AGI and SCI Studios have decided to make their projects available for free. This kind of eliminates any fault of them, this board, or this community from the content of games. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't encourage keeping the games in the spirit of Sierra. It just means we have no "right" to say what one does and doesn't do with it.
Perhaps you should consider politely contacting Eigen Lenk, the creator of Al Pond 1, he seems to be very open to suggestions and I'm sure his intention was not to offend anyone.
One other point I must make. A lot of the people making games here are very young. These games may be an outburst of hormone induced expression. Including a notice of vulgar content might be something that they would never even think of.
Finally, on a personal note. As an American who sees his freedoms being taken away one by one through the internet, and soon growing out from that....I must say that I think censorship is ignorant. People lack the personal responsibility to examine something before they do it. If one is so easily offended then it would be very easy to discover if something they are about to experience is offensive.
*please note these are my personal opinions. Censorship "offends" me a great deal. I do not intend to insult you, just to point out that perhaps you should excersize personal censorship rather than trying to force your opinions on others.
|Eigen||I apologize for those who don't like vulgar language in my game. Mabye I should release the clean version. :-|
Same here. It's best to look at what you're making/made and see if it's fit for releasing. If it's not, try to take out or change the things you don't think are appropriate. I for one have been thinking a lot about the brothel in Little Pirate (I want it a game kids can play too), but seeing that it serves as a part of the captain's character, I leave it in. If the language's functional, I'd say you leave it in it, if it's not, leave it out.
*Personal note, in the line of Juncmodule's personal note
I feel censorship as cops on the street. I haven't done anything wrong, but I still feel uncomfortable with them around.
Well, maybe in the first two parts... The third part however, did have some pretty 'vulgar' scenes, all about sex... Also, part 5 & 6 were pretty much that way too, not really explicit, but did include some plain 'nudity' (in easter-eggs, but anyway)... And at 7, well, I always thought that was the part where Al threw overboard his whole philosophy...
While I know you're very fond of the whole adventure genre and respect your point of view, I find this very disturbing. And how would you exactly 'abandon' those programmers?
It's a 'risk' they have to take. When Sierra developed the engine(s), they only used it in their own environs, having their own QA. They (Brian, et al) are well aware of the fact that fanmade games however, do (and also most likely can) not have a standardized quality assurance/censorship. Which (IMHO) can lead to some of the better fanmade AGI games...
What do you mean? Do you think the fanmade games have such an disastrous effect? Or are you trying to say that you are going to kill the bad fangames? Then again; were all Sierra games such masterpieces? IMHO, if all games were like King's Quest 1 (regarding the game, not the engine), they never would have had such a big following...
Anyway, I do respect your point of view (and of those many others), but while a warning might be appropriate, I think censorship is a bad thing...
No hard feelings, ;). I'm glad this discussion finally is being held and I think one should always keep an open mind with regards to these kind of topics in order to generally increase the quality and experience of gaming.|
The adventures I'm referring to were all made in the beginning of the Sierra-emperium. Your statements about Larry 5, 6 and 7 are in fact true (I disagree on LSL3, which was a total a-sexual game and a total parody), but I tend to think that Sierra was in rethreat back then and the turmoil started to influence the company. There's a reason the latter adventures weren't so successfull and I think Al and others tried to step off the path by throwing in more sex. And that's why these adventures failed to reach big sales. Simply because the story and concept behind the first adventures was missing.
Talking to people in this community, I found it's not right to abandon certain fanmade software. People are free to make software to their liking and if I had a say in it, they could use as much vulgar material in it as they'd want. The thing is this: In order to maintain the spirit of 'old' Sierra, I do think it's easy to implement some sort of quality control. It can be as easy as Cromer's adventure upload section for example. People can advertise their adventures all over the board, but in order to be admitted to Cromer's agigames.com an adventure must meet some quality-standards e.g. a certain number of rooms or a good storyline to name a couple.
And finally... to stress once again: I would hate to see games being censored. Censoring can never be good. I was actually referring to some self-censoring. Programmers should really look at their programs critically before releasing them. What makes a quality game? What made LSL1 good and LSL7 bad? Surely it was not in the graphics and the sounds.
Y'know, VG doesn't have a single profane word in it. However, this was a conscious decision after I saw that a work-buddy's kid enjoyed it. Well, I thought, the game doesn't really need any profanity, and if I make sure I don't have any profanity therein, I'll be able to seek a larger audience!|
So, I'm a bit of a whore on one side, and yet my message can potentially reach a larger and younger audience. Works for me.
By the way, I fucking love games like Grand Theft Auto, because it does what it needs to do. I have games in the works that are rather extremist in terms of violence and subject matter, but they have those elements because the games are discussions of those elements.
Erego, does the game need the @#$%? Then give it @$%% by the shovel-full. If not, don't bother, because you're screwing yourself out of your full audience just to use the word "FUCK".
|mr-t||My games have a bit of swearing in them. I think that people should not censor their games, as profanity, violence, etc. often bring accross quite important messages.|
I don't believe a fanmade AGI-game --with this audience-- can bring across an important message. You have different tools and channels for that.|
I do fully agree with Andrew however. My dream is to one day make an historic (maybe even black and white) adventure on the fall of Nazi Germany. It will have shocking elements, and shocking language, but in the end those #@&*^* ;) will be defeated.
I will inflict self-censoring though, because I want the game to be playable for a larger audience. I will explicitly warn the players on the material.
Maybe I should put one thing straight. With self-censoring I did not mean a Big Brother thing, but that authors should constrain themselves willingly because they intend to publish their products in the public domain. If they really feel that the English language acceptable vocabulary is inefficient for their game, they should mark it accordingly somehow. Just as people should have the right to speech freedom, people have the right not to be exposed unexpectedly to indecency.|
I really appreciate the Al Pond author offer to produce a clean version. I took the chance and had a quick look at Al Pond 2. For a fan game, it is really looks great!
One of my concerns with your post was this:|
Maybe this forum should expect from their members to exercise self-censoring
No one in the forum has the right to expect anything of the members. This forum has no control over anything except the content of the forum itself.
authors should constrain themselves willingly because they intend to publish their products in the public domain
I only have a problem with the word "should" here. These are freedoms you are talking about. Little words like this become very big words. Should indicates forcing someones will. I believe that we, as a community, "should" encourage self censorship.
Just as people should have the right to speech freedom, people have the right not to be exposed unexpectedly to indecency.
I have a few problems with this one...namely that your rights are dependant on the country you reside in. You might not have those rights in Eigen's country. Once again it all comes back to what I said:
People lack the personal responsibility to examine something before they do it. If one is so easily offended then it would be very easy to discover if something they are about to experience is offensive.
You have just as much reponsibility as the author of the game does to protect your "rights". It is your fault that you were offended, not Eigen's. Keep in mind that the internet is a very powerful tool. If you are offended by a game I could not imagine how you feel when you read or watch the daily news. I hope that you will evalute your opinions on freedom of speech and censorship. I think that many people are unaware as to how harmful their opinions are to the future of ourselves and our children. I am not saying that you are 100% wrong. I sympathize with your situation, but, I do not agree with how you see your situation.
You know this is the sorta attitude that spawns parental guidance labels. It's already destroying the cover art on cds, please don't tarnish fan games with this.|
If an agi game has just been completed and it has bad language in it, then one just has to notify the potential host sites that it has bad language in it. Whether they put it on the sites is up to them.
Besides, in the more recent agi games a player can use swear words as commands. If the player does use those, what does that say about him/her? People shouldn't preach what they don't practice.
|MagickPoultry||What's wrong with parental guidance labels exactly? I think disclaimers are the decent thing to do in any medium. I don't have problems with profanity, and in some cases, I think it's more appropriate to include it. But I recognize that some people do object to profanity, for whatever reasons, so I think it is right to inform them ahead of time if it's there. It's a moral issue.|
Parents hit the malls in droves, descending on Toys R Us and Software Etc. like locusts, looking for holiday gifts to make their children smile. Somewhere on that list is a video game or two. Some parents will scan the box, using the screenshots on the back as a barometer of whether this is something they want their child to play. A smaller number take note of the rating on the front cover, wondering what it means. Most simply grab the game and check an item off of their list.
That is a quote from a October 30th CNN Money article. Censorship DOESN'T WORK. All it does is take away freedom. Responsibility on the part of the "consumer" is the only thing that works. Censorship of any kind is something that dictatorships practice. I guess if that's the kind of world you want to live in...well...have fun.
This probably ought to be moved to the other board, but...|
You're right that consumers have to be responsible, but you're wrong to think the answer is to stop being upfront about the contents of the product. If there are no ratings or labels, it's even more difficult to know whether it will be acceptable for children or the easily offended and therefore more difficult to be a responsible consumer. However, if you say upfront what might be objectionable and they still buy it or play it or whatever, they have no right to complain. This is not censorship. It is acting like an honest, courteous person ought to act.
The bottom line is: It should remain the choice of the game's designer whether or not to include profanity or any other potentially objectionable material. However, they should respect other people enough to warn them. That's not censorship.
I am working on a game with no swearing. It might be offensive though, because of the heavy drug content.
I will make it so that if you type in curse words in the game, you will be cursed (I actually had the idea before that South Park $H!# episode) and die.
Don't expect it any time soon though, I am barely starting the game, and I will start college soon, so I don't know how much free time I'll have to finish it.
I was thinking about that whole not about SCI thing...but, this board doesn't get much traffic anyway.|
Regardless of whatever our opinions are on the matter, we all are aware that someone was offended so, if we choose to censor or not to censor...cool. Regardless, just like with GTA3 this thread is nothing but a huge promotion for "Al Pond".
That's pretty cool. I like Al Pond anyway.
I actually worked with this cat once who played all those fancy fps's with his kids. He had this eight-year-old who loved Aliens vs. Predator, but this guy actually sat down and played the games with his kids.|
That's the difference. Instead of casually buying the games and plugging the kids into the idiot box, this guy sat down with them and discussed the differences between gaming and reality. He asked them questions about how a game made them feel. He asked them if they realized that gaming behavior was unacceptable in the real world.
He monitored their internet and tv/movie content in the same manner. If I were a parent, I would do nothing less. I'm going to actively promote my game to parents on my site, explaining the lack of profanity. (I'm actually using Cromer's template, so if the player uses profanity, the game will boot them) There are other questionable matters within the game, but I'm going to address them during the intro.
I want people of all ages to play my game, but I refuse to alter the content for the sake of censorship. I'll explain the difference between my game world and reality, and I won't deliberately use profanity, but if anyone got upset with the content of my creation, I would feel no sympathy for them whatsoever. I have never purchased or downloaded a game without some real idea of its content.
Those parents who "accidentally" buy their kids ultra-violent games are obviously not paying enough attention. Those kids might get into trouble, but it will be due to their lousy, ignorant, irresponsible parents, not lousy, ignorant, irresponsible games.
Word to your mother!