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Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution 
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Joined: Sat 23 Apr 2011, 13:12:30

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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
We know the difference. The dispute was over your claim that you can have both accurate emulation and graphical enhancements that alter how the console operates. Pixel shaders and the like are usually fine because that just alters what the display does and they're sometimes necessary with older systems because LCDs don't handle some visuals that were designed for older TVs. However, as an example, the NES has a sprite limit. This is a limitation of the console, and accurate emulation has to adhere to that or by definition it is not accurate. Also while graphical enhancements are nice and all, Desmume should have other priorities like fixing the games that don't work.


Sat 12 Apr 2014, 14:20:55
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Monochrome1 wrote:
people who dont understand difference between upscaling and increasing internal resolution which looks completely different.

Trust me, we do. You're just furiously insisting that you're special and your understanding of the term "upscaling" is the only one that anybody could ever possibly use. Did you ever sit down and consider that, on an internet forum, with people from countries literally all over the world, some of whom are speaking english as a second or third or such language, and many of which were raised in dialectal anomalous areas, all have the same conception of how to exactly and precisely use terms with a very generic sense of application? Of course not! There's no way someone could sit down and come to that conclusion! You clearly haven't thought through what you're arguing about proper.y

Let's completely forget about the common "normal american society" usage of upscale for "something with vast/high class economic scale" -- because that's clearly irrelevant here. Let's even completely forget about the specific usage for "upscaling" to generically refer to something where "scale" is being raised or even just high, in any form, at any point, in any context. Let's just assume that the only definition of the term "upscaling" is the one that you're absolutely insisting is correct based on figuring out how all of your posts could possibly be consistent (posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=106024) -- where you take data, and in its original form, put it into a container meant for higher orders of data. If only there were terms that just so happen to mean this very thing outside of this rhetoric.

Now, for just a moment, how many interpretations of "upscaling internal resolution" could there possibly be? At least four, just off the top of my head: The act of making the resolution itself a higher number; turning the internal resolution's representative quanta into larger ones; turning the internal resolution's quanta into more and finer ones; upscaling the data which has the internal resolution as a dependency -- these are all legitimate interpretations of the phrase "upscaling internal resolution" for the only definition of "upscaling" that makes sense for your posts, which you've brought upon yourself because you explicitly rejected the definitions of others. Now, for just a moment, what happens when I render a 3D image at 320x240? It's quantized into rasters. Its "infinite" vector representation is "scaled down" to the resolution of 320x240.

Let's imagine that -- god forbid -- our "infinite" vector data had "finite" data plastered on it, in another form of projection. Like, say, some pixels being rendered on the side of the vectors. Some games programmer may decide to make the "finite" data in these pixels, line up with the screen pixels in 320x240 mode. But if you render the game at 352x264, 110% the original resolution, those pixels will no longer line up. This is inaccurate. The original system would render the pixels lined up perfectly, but that doesn't happen any more at all! You can claim that because of the nature of how rasterization works, any scale at or above 2.0x is fair game for accuracy, but you'd be very dead wrong! A game developer could, theoretically, rely on all sorts of texture things that make any changing of rendering resolution totally destroy what it's trying to represent. A game developer could be using moire patterns to fit a 500 character font in a 100x100 pixel bitmap, cleverly using UVs and sampling to make different letters appear out of an aliasing effect -- this completely breaks if you change the rendering resolution at all, even a little, even an integer multiple! This is the reason that 3D renderers have an internal resolution, and why changing it for things that don't expect it IS, OBJECTIVELY, UNDENIABLY inaccurate.


Sat 12 Apr 2014, 15:49:13
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
wareya wrote:
Monochrome1 wrote:
people who dont understand difference between upscaling and increasing internal resolution which looks completely different.

Trust me, we do. You're just furiously insisting that you're special and your understanding of the term "upscaling" is the only one that anybody could ever possibly use. Did you ever sit down and consider that, on an internet forum, with people from countries literally all over the world, some of whom are speaking english as a second or third or such language, and many of which were raised in dialectal anomalous areas, all have the same conception of how to exactly and precisely use terms with a very generic sense of application? Of course not! There's no way someone could sit down and come to that conclusion! You clearly haven't thought through what you're arguing about proper.y

Let's completely forget about the common "normal american society" usage of upscale for "something with vast/high class economic scale" -- because that's clearly irrelevant here. Let's even completely forget about the specific usage for "upscaling" to generically refer to something where "scale" is being raised or even just high, in any form, at any point, in any context. Let's just assume that the only definition of the term "upscaling" is the one that you're absolutely insisting is correct based on figuring out how all of your posts could possibly be consistent (posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=106024) -- where you take data, and in its original form, put it into a container meant for higher orders of data. If only there were terms that just so happen to mean this very thing outside of this rhetoric.

Now, for just a moment, how many interpretations of "upscaling internal resolution" could there possibly be? At least four, just off the top of my head: The act of making the resolution itself a higher number; turning the internal resolution's representative quanta into larger ones; turning the internal resolution's quanta into more and finer ones; upscaling the data which has the internal resolution as a dependency -- these are all legitimate interpretations of the phrase "upscaling internal resolution" for the only definition of "upscaling" that makes sense for your posts, which you've brought upon yourself because you explicitly rejected the definitions of others. Now, for just a moment, what happens when I render a 3D image at 320x240? It's quantized into rasters. Its "infinite" vector representation is "scaled down" to the resolution of 320x240.

Let's imagine that -- god forbid -- our "infinite" vector data had "finite" data plastered on it, in another form of projection. Like, say, some pixels being rendered on the side of the vectors. Some games programmer may decide to make the "finite" data in these pixels, line up with the screen pixels in 320x240 mode. But if you render the game at 352x264, 110% the original resolution, those pixels will no longer line up. This is inaccurate. The original system would render the pixels lined up perfectly, but that doesn't happen any more at all! You can claim that because of the nature of how rasterization works, any scale at or above 2.0x is fair game for accuracy, but you'd be very dead wrong! A game developer could, theoretically, rely on all sorts of texture things that make any changing of rendering resolution totally destroy what it's trying to represent. A game developer could be using moire patterns to fit a 500 character font in a 100x100 pixel bitmap, cleverly using UVs and sampling to make different letters appear out of an aliasing effect -- this completely breaks if you change the rendering resolution at all, even a little, even an integer multiple! This is the reason that 3D renderers have an internal resolution, and why changing it for things that don't expect it IS, OBJECTIVELY, UNDENIABLY inaccurate.

Rendering at higher resolution in not part of emulation if original console didnt have it. You can emulate only what original hardware did so it has nothing to with accuracy.What matters is if emulator is accurate at native. Some people here seems to have misguided ideology about accuracy.Besides even HLE can give same results as LLE.


Mon 14 Apr 2014, 14:58:43
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Rendering at higher resolution in not part of emulation if original console didnt have it. You can emulate only what original hardware did so it has nothing to with accuracy.What matters is if emulator is accurate at native.Besides even HLE can give same results as LLE.


Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:00:33
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
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Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:11:57
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
I suppose we can add "lolmono" to the list, then?

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Mon 14 Apr 2014, 15:49:29
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Kawa wrote:
I suppose we can add "lolmono" to the list, then?
Yes, please.


Mon 14 Apr 2014, 16:54:30
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Monochrome1 wrote:
Rendering at higher resolution in not part of emulation if original console didnt have it. You can emulate only what original hardware did so it has nothing to with accuracy.What matters is if emulator is accurate at native.Besides even HLE can give same results as LLE.

Maybe if the original console didn't have rendering at all. But it did. It rendered at 320x240. Rendering at ANY OTHER RESOLUTION means you're NOT rendering at 320x240, which means you're not emulating accurately.

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Mon 14 Apr 2014, 17:40:54
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
The whole point of my wall of text is that the original resolution in which a 3D game is rendered MATTERS. It's OBJECTIVE. There is no "the resolution doesn't really matter!" -- it DOES matter. There are things that can directly depend on the very specific resolution the original game hardware expects. Yes, there are PC games with arbitrary resolution support (the majority of them even) but NO, CONSOLE GAMES DO NOT TEND TO PLAY WELL WITH ARBITRARY RESOLUTION.

Even if it's just minor glitches, like the edges of a sprite rolling over to another part of the spritesheet, or some piece of geometry not lining up with another, THE GLITCHES ARE, WILL BE, AND MUST BE THERE to render the game at a resolution it's not meant to be rendered at.

A HUGE part of the point of console games is that devs only need to target a small set of resolutions, framerates, hardware behavior, etc. They WILL abuse this privilege and make things that only work perfectly on the console itself, because that's totally legitimate! That's the whole point of "Accurate" emulation. That's the whole point of making a distinction between "vanilla" and "enhancement" behavior.


Mon 14 Apr 2014, 18:11:57
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
wareya wrote:
Kawa wrote:
I suppose we can add "lolmono" to the list, then?
Yes, please.

Why do I feel like my trademark is being infringed upon?

lolmono

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Mon 14 Apr 2014, 21:35:24
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Hey, nobody noticed that this Monochrome1 is a troll? Are you new in the internet?
Come on, these were very weak trolling attempts, but he fished a lot of dudes here.....

Hey Kakashi, Monochrome1 is taking your place as the biggest troll in the forum. Do something now!!!!!


Mon 14 Apr 2014, 23:05:18
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Dude, when the fuck is your translation gonna be ready? This is unacceptable.

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Tue 15 Apr 2014, 00:24:26
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
Kakashi wrote:
wareya wrote:
Kawa wrote:
I suppose we can add "lolmono" to the list, then?
Yes, please.

Why do I feel like my trademark is being infringed upon?

lolkakashi

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Tue 15 Apr 2014, 05:53:27
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
This guy speaks in such a way that he has got to be sincere, and if he's not, then he's confused as hell.


Tue 15 Apr 2014, 07:41:35
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Post Re: Desmume X432R with option to increase internal resolution
I find it bizarre that you and I only have conversations on the board despite both being in #higan 24/7.

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Tue 15 Apr 2014, 08:43:48
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