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Mercurial Magic has been cancelled 
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Joined: 2014-09-27 09:56
Posts: 1674
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
byuu wrote:
Quote:
It's the tool's job to transform it into all of the different formats


Which is why the tool should not be compiled into the emulator directly.


Sure it can, the emulator doesn't have to support any output format other than its own.

Quote:
The way I do formats is to just silently release them, then passive-agressively complain that nobody's using the "clearly superior" formats, despite a lack of mature tooling offered by myself.

Most of the time, the formats go nowhere; and some of the time, they become more popular than I could have imagined.

I guess it's more important that I feel I made something I find to be as near to perfection as I can manage, than it is for it to actually be used by others.


Well, you do you, I guess. All of my tools have been made with the express purpose of meeting the needs of users, whether those users are the hack creators or the end-users/players. You have your prerogative, I have mine. I'm not about to throw away hundreds of hours of work by dozens of creators because of somebody else's idea of "perfect". Unfortunately, with hex_usr going nuclear on the entire codebase for this project, I guess that I'm going to have to waste a bunch of time I was planning on using to work on Chrono Trigger this summer and rewrite MM from scratch instead. So hey thanks for that, hex_usr. cleaning up this petty "I'm going to take my toys and go home so nobody can play with them" bullshit is definitely a worthwhile use of my time.

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byuu wrote:
Surely I can unite the vi vs emacs crowd like I have the ZSNES vs Snes9X crowd :)



higan WIP builds available here


2018-06-11 06:39
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Joined: 2014-09-25 13:52
Posts: 8242
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
Quote:
Sure it can, the emulator doesn't have to support any output format other than its own.


Are we on completely different pages here?

If you accept .msu1 packs directly, you're working with the input, not the output of a conversion tool.

That means that if a future tool update adds MP3 support, Snes9X v1.56(+) won't support that pack. That's a problem for the pack format.

Users should be dropping the .msu1 pack onto a tool, choosing Snes9X v1.56(+), and getting something that will run in Snes9X that is not the .msu1 pack itself.

Quote:
I guess that I'm going to have to waste a bunch of time I was planning on using to work on Chrono Trigger this summer and rewrite MM from scratch instead.


With what it does currently, it sounds like a 1-2 day project. I can do it if you want, and I'll keep compatibility with the current spec.

But I probably won't support older versions of bsnes. I'd support exporting to game files (game.sfc, game.msu, game-#.pcm) or game paks (in the v107 finalized format), and nothing else.

But in return, I'd ask you to have Snes9X rely on the tool, that way I can add MP3/FLAC->PCM export conversion in the future, and actually have people willing to use it.

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What the hell's going on? Can someone tell me please?
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I'm black, then I'm white. No, something isn't right.
My enemy's invisible, I don't know how to fight.


2018-06-11 07:08
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Joined: 2014-09-25 13:57
Posts: 2119
Location: Australia
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
qwertymodo wrote:
byuu wrote:
Quote:
It's the tool's job to transform it into all of the different formats


Which is why the tool should not be compiled into the emulator directly.


Sure it can, the emulator doesn't have to support any output format other than its own.

Maybe this isn't the best time to bring it up, but I feel like you two are talking past each other here.

One point of view is "we should have an amorphous format that includes the Best Everything, and write a smart tool that can compile it down to all the dumb output formats we want". This approach has worked out pretty well for languages like C++ and Haskell, or tools like Unity and Flash, or Word and Excel..

Another point of view is "we should have a simple, dumb format and then everybody can write their own dumb tools to work with it". This approach has worked out pretty well for ZIP and PDF and PNG and HTTP and CSV and probably every protocol or file-format you can name off the top of your head.

If your file-format is easy to customise, the overall usefulness is limited by the portability and usability of the tool. If tools are easy to customise, the overall usefulness is limited by the simplicity of the format. Swings and roundabouts, yada yada.

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Maintainer of the unofficial git repository for higan.

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2018-06-11 07:30
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Joined: 2014-09-27 09:22
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 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
byuu wrote:
Quote:
Sure it can, the emulator doesn't have to support any output format other than its own.


Are we on completely different pages here?

If you accept .msu1 packs directly, you're working with the input, not the output of a conversion tool.

The emulator's built-in conversion tool outputs something that the emulator can use. I believe that is the logic.

Conversion does not have to be the exclusive domain of a standalone utility, and really SHOULDN'T be for applications written after a standard was adopted.


Quote:
That means that if a future tool update adds MP3 support, Snes9X v1.56(+) won't support that pack. That's a problem for the pack format.

Users should be dropping the .msu1 pack onto a tool, choosing Snes9X v1.56(+), and getting something that will run in Snes9X that is not the .msu1 pack itself.

That just adjusts the "don't wanna upgrade" target slightly. The problem ceases to be that that people don't want to update their emulator and becomes that people don't want to update their converter. It doesn't actually solve the problem.

There's no real difference between a standalone converter sitting next to an emulator or a converter built into an emulator except that one is less hassle for the user.


I mean, MSU hackers COULD go total MIJET* and start shipping their own conversion tool with every release they make to get around the problems of moving targets, or you could have converters that change .msu1+ files to .msu1 files so people can continue using their older converters by stacking new converters on top, but it seems to defeat the purpose of having a standard if you need to keep updating your software because the standard keeps changing.




*MIJET being a rawmhaxxor group that shipped their own IPS patcher with a database of their patches and what files they were meant to patch, so it could detect any issues and warn people they had the wrong file, because IPS SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.

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2018-06-11 07:51
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Joined: 2014-09-27 09:39
Posts: 2949
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
Yeah, but you can ship converters and patchers with your mods. I convinced a (non-scene) GBA Pokemon modder to do this a long time ago and it worked.


2018-06-11 14:48
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Joined: 2014-09-27 09:56
Posts: 1674
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
If you want to support every audio format under the sun, we have a tool for that already, you just don't like JSON. So we went the Unix route of two separate tools that each do a single job. Every single one of these ideas for changes is an idea we already discussed when we were first creating this .msu1 pack format. We settled on a standard, and people started using it. At this point, byuu, I'm going to tell you the same thing you told me about bps. Take it or leave it. You want something new, make something new (and yes,I am still planning on taking you up on that with the multi patch format, but I have way too many projects on my plate right now). This particular standard was created by the community, it's not up to byuu or hex_usr to decide to break the work that's been put into it because it doesn't fit your idea of "perfect". This wasn't ever intended to be perfect, it was intended to be USEFUL. A lot of dedicated people have done a lot of hard work to make a lot of really freaking cool stuff. You don't get to be the gatekeeper for that work. If you want this new fancy kitchen sink format THAT WE ALREADY TALKED ABOUT YEARS AGO then go ahead. But I'm not going to throw away something good because you don't think it's good enough. You didn't want this stuff back when we were hashing out the format, I really don't understand the complete 180 now.

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byuu wrote:
Surely I can unite the vi vs emacs crowd like I have the ZSNES vs Snes9X crowd :)



higan WIP builds available here


2018-06-11 17:47

Joined: 2014-10-29 21:03
Posts: 51
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
Hey, just a heads up: I've been following this for a bit and I think I would be interested in maintaining Mercurial Magic (or whatever the new one is if I rewrite it). No need to write your own, qwertymodo. Unfortunately, I never used the current version so it might take a bit of research to figure out how exactly it should work.


2018-06-11 19:14
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Joined: 2014-09-27 09:56
Posts: 1674
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
cooprocks123e wrote:
Hey, just a heads up: I've been following this for a bit and I think I would be interested in maintaining Mercurial Magic (or whatever the new one is if I rewrite it). No need to write your own, qwertymodo. Unfortunately, I never used the current version so it might take a bit of research to figure out how exactly it should work.


You can't maintain it unless you already have the source code, because hex_usr deleted his github account. That's why it's currently looking like I'm going to have to rewrite it.

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byuu wrote:
Surely I can unite the vi vs emacs crowd like I have the ZSNES vs Snes9X crowd :)



higan WIP builds available here


2018-06-11 19:55

Joined: 2014-10-29 21:03
Posts: 51
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
I've already sent him a PM asking for source; I'll see if he gets back to me. The main reason why I said something is so that you can do the "more worthwhile things" with your time. I don't really have anything to do this summer, and GUI development would be a good skill for me to develop.


2018-06-11 20:08
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Joined: 2014-09-25 13:52
Posts: 8242
 Re: Mercurial Magic has been cancelled
Quote:
At this point, byuu, I'm going to tell you the same thing you told me about bps. Take it or leave it.


Fine, I'll leave the tool to you then. Again, my own fault for not working on this sooner.

Quote:
it's not up to byuu or hex_usr to decide to break the work that's been put into it because it doesn't fit your idea of "perfect"


My entire first post was, "it's too late, but this would've been nice"; and my entire second post was, "how can we keep 100% backward compatibility, and still do cool things that I wanted this idea to do from the very beginning?"

I wanted to make one exception for firmware, so I guess 99% compatibility. But hey, I guess as long as the trend keeps up and no one ever creates custom uPD7725 firmware, then it doesn't matter that your format can't patch the uPD7725 code. I try to think about future use-case scenarios, under the idea that you never know what people will end up doing. It doesn't always work, and I miss things (like Voicer-kun), but I at least try. I didn't think redoing one pack was asking too much.

Quote:
You don't get to be the gatekeeper for that work.


I'm starting to see why hex got so upset with you.

Quote:
You didn't want this stuff back when we were hashing out the format, I really don't understand the complete 180 now.


hex just freaked out and quit, and deleted all his work. That is why I am posting now. If you haven't noticed, I've realized how my own extremism was reflecting poorly, and have been course-correcting with the new bsnes project, bass standardization, cheat code standardization, etc. It feels like you're taking your frustration with hex out on me.

I was trying to offer to help pick up the pieces. But after your reaction, I've changed my mind. It's all yours.

If your tool can export sd2snes-compatible MSU1 games, those'll load directly into bsnes, so that's good enough for me. Up to you if you wanna bother with higan v107 gamepaks -- that'd be nice, but not necessary. I'll probably allow icarus to import the sd2snes-compatible games.

_________________
What the hell's going on? Can someone tell me please?
Why I'm switching faster than the channels on TV.
I'm black, then I'm white. No, something isn't right.
My enemy's invisible, I don't know how to fight.


2018-06-11 22:35
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